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Minas Tirith Forums » Lord of the Rings » Was Faramir wrong to wed Eowyn? (Page 1)
Author Topic: Was Faramir wrong to wed Eowyn?
Buttermir
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Ok we know that Gondor in its early days was very strong, and reflected somewhat of the glory of Numenor.

But as years went on, it declined, and the blood of Numenor became mingled with that of "lesser men"

Now by some good fortune, the blood of Numenor ran nearly true in Faramir (but not Boromir)... should he not then have tried to preserve his lineage, instead of taking a "lesser woman" as his wife? (No offense, Eowyn!) Was he acting irresponsibly, just as the earlier Kings had done, contributing to the decline of Gondor?

Even Eowyn says "was there no woman of the race of Numenor to choose?"

*runs away ere fans of Eowyn roast him*

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The Last of the Noldor
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Did Eowyn not have some blood of Numenor in her. I believe I read somewhere that she was decended of Morowen of Lossarch a women of high decent.
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Roll of Honor Thangail
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Interesting point. Seems strange that Tolkien harps on about true blood etc, the lets Faramir marry some common Rohan bint...
Mind you, she does have Numenorean blood in her (from her grandmother or mother? Can't recall..) so maybe thats a get out clause.

[edit] Damn you LOTN, I was just typing that as you posted... []

[ 02-25-2003, 05:16 PM: Message edited by: Thangail ]

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"My King" said Elendur, "Ciryon is dead and Aratan is dying. Your last counsellor must advise, nay command you, as you commanded Ohtar. Go! Take your burden, and at all costs bring it to the Keepers: even at the cost of abandoning your men and me!"

Thangail - Sindarin, 'Shield-fence'.

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Beleg Cúthalion
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Maybe he thought about it (Faramir, I mean), but as he was in love [] he said "So what?" []

Seriously. You have a good point. As The Last of the Noldor and Thangail said, she might have had Numenorean blood, but anyway I don't see how Faramir would've known that when he met her.

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Roll of Honor theWhiteLady
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Tolkien did mention 'true blood' as in the blood that runs through generations, such as the line of Beren or Isildur. But I think he further wanted to preserve a certain spirit in the race of man. In this way, I believe Faramir did the right thing in marrying Eowyn; she was not just a common Rohirrim woman, she was strong, brave, and beautiful. One can't ask much more than that; surely she was as good as any Numenorean woman from the days of old. Though the blood may not have been as pure, in my eyes, the spirit was.
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Sâlienne de Lioncourt
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I agree with tWL. I think he was completely right in marrying Éowyn. He did love her, and if he hadn't married her but some other woman with "pure" Numenorean blood, wouldn't he have been miserable? And where would that have left Éowyn, still miserable? Besides, as was mentioned before, didn't she have some blood from Numenor herself?
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Roll of Honor Mandin
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As I read this thread, I began to form in my mind a post very similar to that of the White Lady.
Good work. My thoughts exactly.

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eldon
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Faramir spoke both of the demise of the Numenoreans and their kinship with the Rohirrim 4/5 of the way through The Window on the West:

"The Men of Numenor were settled far and wide on the shores and seaward regions of the Great Lands, but for the most part they fell into evils and follies. Many became enamoured of the Darkness and the black arts; some were given over wholly to idleness and ease, and some fought among themselves, until they were conquered in their weakness by the wild men.

It is not said that evil arts were ever practised in Gondor, or that the Nameless One was ever named in honour there; and the old wisdom and beauty brought out of the West remained long in the realm of the sons of Elendil the Fair, and they linger there still. Yet even so it was Gondor that brought about its own decay, falling by degrees into dotage, and thinking that the Enemy was asleep, who was only banished not destroyed.

Death was ever present, because the Numenoreans still, as they had in their old kingdom, and so lost it, hungered after endless life unchanging. Kings made tombs more splendid than houses of the living, and counted old names in the rolls of their descent dearer than the names of sons. Childless lords sat in aged halls musing on heraldry; in secret chambers withered men compounded strong elixirs, or in high cold towers asked questions of the stars. And the last king of the line of Anarion had no heir.

But the stewards were wiser and more fortunate. Wiser, for they recruited the strength of our people from the sturdy folk of the sea-coast, and from the hardy mountaineers of Ered Nimrais. And they made a truce with the proud peoples of the North, who often had assailed us, men of fierce valour, but our kin from afar off, unlike the wild Easterlings or the cruel Haradrim.

So it came to pass in the days of Cirion the Twelfth Steward (and my father is the six and twentieth) that they rode to our aid and at the great Field of Celebrant they destroyed our enemies that had seized our northern provinces. These are the Rohirrim, as we name them, masters of horses, and we ceded to them the fields of Calenardhon that are since called Rohan; for that province had long been sparsely peopled. And they became our allies, and have ever proved true to us, aiding us at need, and guarding our northern marches and the Gap of Rohan.

Of our lore and manners they have learned what they would, and their lords speak our speech at need; yet for the most part they hold by the ways of their own father and to their own memroies, and they speak among themselves their own North tongue. And we love them: tall men and fair women, valiant both alike, golden-haired, bright-eyed, and strong; they remind us of the youth of Men, as they were in the Elder Days. Indeed it is said by our lore-masters that they have from of old this affinity with us that they are come from those same Three Houses of Men as were the Numenoreans in their beginning; not from Hador the Goldenhaired, the Elf-friend, maybe, yet from such of his sons and people as went not over Sea into the West, refusing the call.

For so we reckon Men in our lore, calling them the High, or Men of the West, which were Numenoreans; and the Middle Peoples, Men of the Twilight, such as are the Rohirrim and their kin that dwell still far in the North; and the Wild, the Men of Darkness.

Yet now, if the Rohirrim are grown in some ways more like to us, enhanced in arts and gentleness, we too have become more like to them, and can scarce claim any longer the title High. We are become Middle Men, of the Twilight, but with memory of other things...

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Samwise Gamgee II
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eldon: Thank you for taking the time to find that!
Buttermir: I had never truly thought about that before. Maybe Tolkien was trying to make a statement that love should be more powerful than race.

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Dignan
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Don't forget that Eowyn might have ended up with Aragorn, if not for Arwen.

Good enough for Aragron, good enough for Faramir. []

[ 02-26-2003, 07:20 AM: Message edited by: Dignan ]

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Roll of Honor theWhiteLady
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*Bows to Sâlienne and Mandin*

Wonderful post, eldon! Thank you for that reference, I too was wondering about the Numenorian connection.

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Aina Moja
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Great post eldon!

Well I am a romantic and will not get into the technical stuff so I am going to say that Faramir and Eowyn were in love and so it was not wrong of them to get married. Awwww...

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Roll of Honor Mandin
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Dignan, any number of women could have ended up with Aragorn if not for Arwen.
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Dignan
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I can't think of another woman mentioned in the book though... []

Eowyn had a lot of qualities that Aragorn picked up on immediately (besides her death wish). I admit that it is pointless to argue whether he would have ended up with anyone else, because we know from the start that Aragorn has a “one-track” mind. His eyes never stray from Arwen’s.

Back to Faramir.

In a way it is equally impossible to speculate whether he made the right choice or not. Tolkien did not offer any alternatives in Minas Tirith (unless you count Iorith).

It’s hard to argue with Faramir’s decision considering he got the deepest female character in the book, but I guess there must have been some quality “phantom” woman somewhere.

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Albion
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Dignan, I don't think Aragorn had the slightest interest in Eowyn as a potential match. He may have admired her fine qualities but mostly he was troubled and shamed by her obvious infatuation with him, a feeling he could not return. Even if Arwen had not existed I don't think he would have had the slightest interest in her. Although a sweet and potentially tragic kid, she was way too young and immature and self-obsessed for him. She was, however, a good match for Faramir. Her personal qualities complemented his and after her experiences on the Pelannor Fields she was ready to accept a role as an adult woman and wife. As a daughter of a ruling king she was of social stature and lineage of her own appropriate to wed the Steward of Gondor.
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Roll of Honor Éomer
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Love is all you need.

And then of course there are all the other reasons mentioned by everyone else that easily qualify Éowyn as a worthy wife (I personally think the real question should be: was Faramir worthy of her? [] ).

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The Last of the Noldor
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Faramir worth of Eowyn. The question should be is anyone worthy to even be mentioned in the same breath as Faramir.
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Leafy Green
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quote:
I had never truly thought about that before. Maybe Tolkien was trying to make a statement that love should be more powerful than race.
Oh...so...magical;25 (sniff)

quote:
Love is all you need
(sings song fom Moulin Rouge) All you need is love!
*A girl has got to eat*
All you need is love!
*Or she'll end up on the street!*
All you need is loooove!

I think that Tolkien may have tried to bring out a point. Because Arwen and Aragorn aren't of the same race either (well not completely anyway)

Great thread!

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Sarie of the Galadhrim
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well, since tolkien didnt decide that arwen and aragorn were going to get married until the end of RotK, i'm not sure how much aragorn was attracted to eowyn. ^_^ JRRT didnt even think of it until the end, according to CT... eowyn first was going to marry aragorn, then he decided against it, and he was married to arwen. that left eowyn... and who should be there but faramir?! Tolkien just never went back to erase the aragorn/eowyn attraction!

did you know eowyn was originally going to die from wounds after slaying the nazgul? just something else our favorite author decided against! ^_^;

namárië!

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Leafy Green
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Wow you are smart Sarie of the Galadhrim []

where did you find all that stuff out at?

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Roll of Honor Snaga
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quote:
Wow you are smart Sarie of the Galadhrim
where did you find all that stuff out at?

Can someone tell me why after reading the LotR and the Silmarillion 50 and 10 times each I (respectively) I have never done more than browse through the history and lost tales books at the local book store!
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Dís Thrain's Daughter
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Snaga, I have no idea. I think Lost Tales were not written in the way they were prepared to be published.
[coming back to Faramir and Eowyn]:
Sarie, I have read the same. First Eowyn was meant to marry Aragorn, but then Tolkien decided she was too young for him. I have also read that Faramir "appeared" quite suddenly during writing LotR. Faramir is quite an lucky and unlucky person: always in the second place: less loved than his brother, finally reaching the position of steward only to lose it (true king was coming), but as a kind of substitute receives Ithilien. But he himself was also a substitute of Aragorn for Eowyn... I know many would disagree... []

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Éoric of the Riddermark
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Well, Éowyn (and the Eorlings in general) definitely weren't Númenórean. However, they did share a common ancestry with the Númenóreans, and the chief difference between the two folk seems to have been whether they left Middle Earth or not. And considering the downfall of Númenór itself, maybe the "Middle Men" had some traits that would have been a boon to the Númenóreans.

Fast forward to the events that resulted in the founding of the Riddermark: At that point, how could the Men of Gondor reasonably consider the Eorlings to be "lesser men" after they had just saved Gondor itself from destruction?

In a nutshell, I think the two were a fine match, and I've never seen Faramir as "marrying down".

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Snöwdog
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quote:
"Seems strange that Tolkien harps on about true blood etc, the lets Faramir marry some common Rohan bint..."
[] Great comment Thangail! Never underestimate the desire to have a common Rohan bint.
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Belthronding
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Bint??

This parochial Bostonian needs an explanation - mostly cuz I want to start using the term...

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