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Minas Tirith Forums » Lord of the Rings » The Elf/Dwarf feud? (Page 2)
Author Topic: The Elf/Dwarf feud?
Viscount Værtalion
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Most Dwarves are not selfish and greedy.
the thought of Mithril and other treasures might make them stingy. but as somebody said before they have things in common, the both love nature in their own ways. but the are like blind orcs when it comes to acknowledge their relations.
the do not like to be told they are like each other. Elves and Dwarves.

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Fool, prate not to me about covenants.
There can be no covenants between men and lions,
wolves and lambs can never be of one mind, but
hate each other out and out and through.


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Roll of Honor Curufin the Crafty
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Actually, I was under the impression that Elrond kind of wanted Glorfindel to go as well...he certainly would have been more useful than Pippin, that's for sure. He had experience with the whole Balrog-killing business. []

-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
To gain that which is worth having, it may be necessary to lose everything else.
~Bernadette Devlin
http://www.shonjir.net

From: Wherever people are oppressed... | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Halion
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Here is another relevant quote from 'The History of Galadriel and Celeborn' in Unfinished Tales:
quote:
Celeborn had no liking for Dwarves of any race (as he showed to Gimli in Lothlórien), and never forgave them for their part in the destruction of Doriath

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The Laurenendôrian
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Curufin, you may hold many valid grievances against the Dwarves, but to claim that they are not musical goes against great evidence. They seem almost to have had the gift of the elf-minstrels in making that which they sang of appear before people's eyes:
quote:
It was a beautiful golden harp, and when Thorin struck it the music began all at once, so sudden and sweet that Bilbo forgot everything else, and was swept away into dark lands under strange moons, far over The Water and very far from his hobbit-hole under The Hill.
The dark came into the room from the little window that opened in the side of The Hill; the firelight flickered - it was April - and still they played on, while the shadow of Gandalf's beard wagged against the wall. The dark filled the room, and the fire died down, and the shadows were lost, and still they plyed on. And suddenly first one and then another began to sing as they played, deep-throated singing of the dwarves in the deep places of their ancient homes; and this is like a fragment of their song, if it can be like their song without their music.

[The song - well worth reading again, if you don't know it by heart [] ]

As they sang the hobbit felt the love of beautiful things made by hands and by cunning and by magic moving through him, a fierce and jealous love, the desire of the hearts of the dwarves. Then something Tookish woke up inside him, and he wished to go and see the great mountains, and hear the pine-trees and the waterfalls, and explore the caves, and wear a sword instead of a walking-stick.

Or perhaps you would be more inclined to trust something from LR?
quote:
Unwearied then were Durin's folk;
Beneath the mountains, music woke,
The harpers harped, the minstrels sang
And at the gates the trumpets rang.


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Roll of Honor Curufin the Crafty
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I would be much more willing to trust somethng from LotR, Laurenendorian, basically because I don't trust a naive hobbit's description of good music... []

Dwarves may have had their own, cute little folk musics, but I think it's difficult to argue that they are in any possible way more musical than elves.

A bumblebee may be a fantastic master of the air to a snail, but the eagle soars above them all.

-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
To gain that which is worth having, it may be necessary to lose everything else.
~Bernadette Devlin
http://www.shonjir.net

From: Wherever people are oppressed... | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Halion
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Related thread: Could Celeborn have been different?
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Roll of Honor Wandering Tuor
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Wasn't there some instance of elf-dwarf conflict even before the sacking of Doriath?
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Roll of Honor Curufin the Crafty
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WT,

It's my opinion that at least part of the strife comes back to this:

quote:
But I will not suffer this: that these should come before the Firstborn of my design, nor that thy impatience should be rewarded. They shall sleep now in the darkness under stone, and shall not come forth until the Firstborn have awakened upon Earth; and until that time though and they shall wait, though long it seem. But when the time comes, I will awaken them, and they shall be to thee as children; and often strife shall arise between thine and mine, the children of my adoption and teh children of my choice.
From "Of Aulë and Yavanna"

-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
To gain that which is worth having, it may be necessary to lose everything else.
~Bernadette Devlin
http://www.shonjir.net

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Ithildin
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Well, elves are better since they put me on Moria's front door. []
quote:
Men were the best. They weren't prideful likes the elves or selfish like the dwarves. Slightly corrupted maybe, but only a few of the rotten ones
Slightly, ehh... that's like saying Treebeard is slightly taller than a man! Err bad comparison. [] Anyway, thanks to crappy men nazgûl still run around the countryside stealing MY mushrooms.
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Roll of Honor Éomer
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quote:
Overall, Men are the best race
Hear, hear!

::sits back and has a pint with Lord Faramir as the petty Elves and Dwarves continue their endless argument::

I wonder if they've noticed we run the show around here yet... []

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Viscount Værtalion
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*coughs*
not one of them is the best. It depends on what characteristics you think are best.

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Viscount Værtalion
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*coughs*
not one of them is the best. It depends on what characteristics you think are best.

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Thingol of Doriath
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WT- The grief/feud between the Elves and Dwarves mainly stems from the killing of Thingol.

However:
quote:
Ever cool was the friendship between the Naugrim and the Eldar, though much profit they had one of the other; but at that time those griefs that lay between them had not yet come to pass, and King Thingol welcomed them.
This quote refers to when the Naugrim first entered Beleriand.

-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
"I inhaled. That was the point." -Barack Obama

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GLAMDRING The Foe Hammer
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I think the original "coolness" stemmed from the elves looking down (literally) on te dwarves even naming them "Naugrim" which means "the stunted people".

I would have to look it up but I seem to recall that the elves thought they were ugly and uncouth from the start so there was already this animosity between the two races before the events in Doriath that came later and caused outright war and hatred between them.

The elves were very much like the Victorian English, looking down on everyone else in the world as being somewhat less than them. Less cultured, less intelligent, less powerful, uncomely, poorly dressed, etc.

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Thingol of Doriath
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The Elves were rather shocked when they first met the Dwarves... they thought that they were the only speaking creatures in Middle-earth.

quote:
... Caranthir was haughty and scarce concealed his scorn for the unlovliness of the Naugrim, and his people followed their lord. Nevertheless since both peoples feared and hated Morgoth they made alliance, and had of it great profit.
Was that the quote you were looking for? It was Caranthir and the arriving Noldor that were haughty. But, the important thing to see here is that once again their relationship is described as being cool, yet profitable. Before the slaying of Thingol, there was no animosity between the peoples... maybe a little mistrust and hughtiness.

-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
"I inhaled. That was the point." -Barack Obama

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Snöwdog
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quote:
"Even as I gave being to the thoughts of the Ainur at the beginning of the World, so now I have taken up thy desire and given to it a place therein; but in no other way will I amend thy handiwork, and as thou hast made it, so shall it be. But I will not suffer this: that these should come before the Firstborn of my design, nor that thy impatience should be rewarded. They shall sleep now in the darkness under stone, and shall not come forth until the Firstborn have awakened upon earth; and until that time thou and they shall wait, though long it seem. But when the time comes I will awaken them, and they shall be to thee as children; and often strife shall arise between thine and mine, the children of my adoption and the children of my choice."
There is several quoted instances of the general feuding between the elves and dwarves through Tolkien's writings pretty much covering all the years. That is why Gimli and Legolas's friendship, and Galadriel's gift to Gimli were so remarkable But nowhere (unless I missed it) was there any mention of intermingling! The reason goes all the way back. Maybe had PJ read the source material, he would have gotten it?

Are there any other instances mentioned where the relationship between dwarf and elf was positive?

From: In the Shadows of Annuminas | Registered: Aug 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Mithrennaith
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Snöwdog,

I’d say Eöl and the Dwarves of Nogrod & Belegost. Possibly also Celebrimbor & Narvi.

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Snöwdog
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Yes, the dwarves of Belegost and Nogrod did help Finrod build Norgothrond, and made the Nauglamir using stones Finrod gave them in it. But that led to grief eventually as well.
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Hamfast Gamgee
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True, but didn't everything in the Silmarillion. In fact, at the end, we are told it was all part of Eru's plan.
From: Bagshot Row, Hobbiton, The Shire! | Registered: Sep 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
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