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Minas Tirith Forums » Lord of the Rings » The Elf/Dwarf feud? (Page 1)
Author Topic: The Elf/Dwarf feud?
Imby
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I'm not sure if the forum is correct, but since LOTR made me think about it, I decided to ask here.

What was the origin of the dislike between the elves and the dwarves?

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Roll of Honor Curufin the Crafty
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This quote from the Silmarillion might be helpful. It's right after Aulë has created the dwarves, and Ilúvatar has discovered them, but has decided to let them survive anyway. He says to Aulë:

quote:
"Even as I gave being to the thoughts of the Ainur at the beginning of the World, so now I have taken up thy desire and given to it a place therein; but in no other way will I amend thy handiwork, and as thou hast made it, so shall it be. But I will not suffer this: that these should come before the Firstborn of my design, nor that thy impatience should be rewarded. They shall sleep now in the darkness under stone, and shall not come forth until the Firstborn have awakened upon earth; and until that time thou and they shall wait, though long it seem. But when the time comes I will awaken them, and they shall be to thee as children; and often strife shall arise between thine and mine, the children of my adoption and the children of my choice."

From: Wherever people are oppressed... | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
GimBill
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Well, I could say that the Elves were of Iluvatar's will and that the Dwarves were created by my boy Aule (DAMN! It won't let me edit the two dots above the 'e'!!! GRR!!!!) against Iluvatar's will but later accepted, but, i'm not going to. I'm gonna say that Elves have pointy ears, and that's why they bother me. []

But really, I think it's because they are like fire and water. The Elves love and respect nature and work around it. The Dwarves love nature too, but in a different way. The love to take the raw that nautre gives them, and turn it into something beautiful, wheather it be gems, or stone, or raw ore, the dwarves use what is given to them to be the artists that they are. But, this eventually turned into greed, and we all know what happened in Moria. I still am a dwarf enthusiast, and would LOVE to know what happened to them when they aren't written about. I want a Sim for the Dwarves. There just isn't enough written about them, but, the main concern of Tolkien's world was Elves, after all. ::sigh:: Oh well. Being a Libra rising, I can see how Elves are cool too, even though I prefer Dwarves. [] Much love. MWAH!

EDIT: Wow. I just missed the whole point of the thread. Feud.....um, I think it's because the dwarves stopped caring about nature for it's beauty and were whoring it out for it's resources so they could get rich. That didn't make the Elves happy for obvious reasons. [] ëëëëëëëêÉë

[ 01-20-2003, 01:33 PM: Message edited by: GimBill ]

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"Play 'Wheels On The Bus' and get the hell out of my sight."

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From: The Heart of Yawgoog! | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Roll of Honor Curufin the Crafty
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The truth is, Dwarves are greedy and selfish, and we elves can't abide by their egocentric, isolationist, underground, ugly little lifestyles. []
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GimBill
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Ok, listen Elfy, just because some of my ancestors got a bit greedy doesn't mean that we're all greedy! I like Elves, don't get me wrong, but they all act like "Oh, i'm immortal, so i'm better than you, and yeah." We dwarves work hard because we don't have 483 years to do a painting. We only live to be like, 150 or so. Now, if you want to rag on someone, let's rag on humans. There's a......winning lot. []

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"Play 'Wheels On The Bus' and get the hell out of my sight."

On a bumper sticker "Jesus Saves...the rest of you take full damage."

From: The Heart of Yawgoog! | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Roll of Honor Curufin the Crafty
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Hey, it's not our fault that we're Ilúvatar's chosen children, and you aren't. Don't get all bitter because we're better.

It also isn't our fault that you're short, non-musical, and your language sounds like a throat disease.

It also isn't our fault that you choose to use the years of your life collecting treasures for yourselves instead of bettering the plight of Middle Earth. You were the ones who awakened Durin's Bane, you know, by getting too greedy and delving too deep. And we all know that there are no Ecthelions or Glorfindels among dwarves!

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Imby
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Wow, I didn't expect this thread to become a "to-date" example of the feud! Thanks for the info, very helpful. []

Please continue your, um, debate--it's too funny!

[ 01-20-2003, 01:45 PM: Message edited by: Imbealphwen ]

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GimBill
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At least my people are going to stay with Middle Earth until the end and not run away to the West. ::big raspberry:: []

You know....i've had these discussions with my friend who is a HUGE Elf enthusiast in Dungeons and Dragons. It usually ends up like this:

Me: Elf.
Her: Dwarf.
Me: Elf.
Her: Dwarf.

I think it's pretty funny, but I guess that's just my sick sense of humor. Oh well. []

-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
"Play 'Wheels On The Bus' and get the hell out of my sight."

On a bumper sticker "Jesus Saves...the rest of you take full damage."

From: The Heart of Yawgoog! | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Roll of Honor Curufin the Crafty
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At least my people have accomplishments!

Come on. I dare you. Name a dwarvish accomplishment. Other than accumulating Wealth, I mean.

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Roll of Honor Thorin
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That's not an accomplishment, you commie elf? []

That's a nice necklace you have their, Finrod. Oh, excuse me - it seems to be the Nauglamir. Who made that? That was certainly some accomplishment!

Your Thranduil wanted us to shape his raw gold and jewels, and then refused to pay us.

Your Thranduil wanted to go take our gold from the Lonely Mountain when he heard Smaug was dead.

Your Celembrimbor wanted our Moria true-silver, yet your Celeborn blames us for waking up Durin's Bane.

Who wants a Glorfindel? We have a Bifur! []

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Tuor
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As the original question, I believe it was the slaying of Thingol that created the feud between Elves and Dwarves. Durin's line still had friendship with the Noldor, but the Noldor and Durin's line were both in decline.
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Roll of Honor Curufin the Crafty
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*puts hands over neck to try to hide nifty dwarf necklace*

What necklace?

But please, you compare Glorfindel and Echtilion with Bifur? That's like comparing Manwë to Butterbur.

I suppose some dwarves are alright. The ones around Nargothrond were fine until they turned evil and killed my great-uncle.

EDIT: And you did wake Durin's Bane. You could have told Celelbrimbor that you didn't HAVE any more mithril, but NOOOOOOoooooo....not about to sacrifice making a little money, were you???

[ 01-20-2003, 02:07 PM: Message edited by: Finrod Felagund ]

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Roll of Honor Thorin
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I think it's much more complicated than that, Tuor. Who could point to one thing starting the Israeli - Palestinian feud? It's an ongoing nasty relationship between Elves and Dwarves - very fluid and not static. Although I would agree that the slaying was the first recorded instance of ill-will. Just as Bilbo could not claim to have "started" the problem with the Ring, so Thingol's death could not be said to have "started" the animosity. That's why I found Finrod and GimBill amusing - not only was it funny, but it also made a very good point.

Edit to Finrod: We also have a Bofur.

[ 01-20-2003, 02:11 PM: Message edited by: Thorin ]

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Roll of Honor Curufin the Crafty
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*rolls eyes*

Of course, I was taking the viewpoint of an average elf, not as myself. I am actually quite fond of Dwarves, so fond, in fact, that I took their name for me as my chosen name.

"Felagund" comes from the Khuzdul word meaning "hewer of caves."

Oh, and thanks for the pretty necklace, friends.

[ 01-20-2003, 02:17 PM: Message edited by: Finrod Felagund ]

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GimBill
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And this is why I love MT. []

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"Play 'Wheels On The Bus' and get the hell out of my sight."

On a bumper sticker "Jesus Saves...the rest of you take full damage."

From: The Heart of Yawgoog! | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Tuor
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Thorin,

I agree that there was always animosity between the races, but I believe the first time it really blew up was over Thingol's death.

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Roll of Honor bombadil
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You should probably read the recently-discovered Tolkien work, Dwarves are from Mars, Elves are from Venus, with commentary by Christopher T. I'll refrain from further comment until you've read this scholarly tome.
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GimBill
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I'll be sure to pick it up while i'm at Borders today. I'm going there to get Harry Potter and the Order of The Phoenix. []

[ 01-20-2003, 02:24 PM: Message edited by: GimBill ]

-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
"Play 'Wheels On The Bus' and get the hell out of my sight."

On a bumper sticker "Jesus Saves...the rest of you take full damage."

From: The Heart of Yawgoog! | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Imbëar
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Elves are of the Stars, and Dwarves are of the Earth.

I like to step back by an order of magnitude or two, and examine the Elf-Dwarf conflict in terms of Spirit-Body conflict.

While the Spirit is willing, often the Body is grudging and unwilling. It could be said that the body becomes hardened or stunted to properly bear this great tension, weight, and burden of toil.

In Middle Earth, the conflict began when the Elves hunted the first Dwarves they encountered. The Elves, in their great wisdom, judged the book by its cover:
these stunted things, because they were physically less aesthetic than the Elves, were immediately deemed to be spiritually inferior.
The Dwarves, taking this belief to heart, maintained a Culture that betrayed their faulty and internal belief that no race would ever love the Dwarves.
And so, in defense, they vowed never to love any other race; bringing the division full circle.

Thus, whoever began the feud is irrelevant.
The resolution to the feud requires both Elf and Dwarf, Spirit and Body working in harmony.

Unless the Spirit and the Body can learn to ride a horse together, or row a boat in unison, then neither can expect to Cross the waters of the wide Sea.

Imbëar

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Roll of Honor Miz Lobelia
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Weren't the doors of Moria made in the Second Age? Dispite the unpleasantness over the Nauglamir (and don't forget Mim* the petty dwarf who betrayed Turin and Beleg and tried to take possession of the treasures of Nargothrond after its fall) the two races appear to have 'made up' to the point that the password to Moria was actually written on the door. That's pretty friendly!

*WHY did Tolkien have to name him Mim? Every time I read the Turin part of the Silm I get that whiny little Mime song in my head []

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Dunadan
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As a more general commentary on the nature of conflict (from a source not biased by being a member of either race), I think the friendship between Legolas and Gimli in LoTR demonstrates how easily an age-old conflict can be tossed aside. The two were somewhat distrustful of each other until they realized that both of them were ok people (erm... you know what I mean). Then they got to know each other, tossing aside millenia of conflict. If this could perhaps be applied on a larger scale, and the beliefs of the two races reconciled...
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Roll of Honor Gandalf the White
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Men were the best. They weren't prideful likes the elves or selfish like the dwarves. Slightly corrupted maybe, but only a few of the rotten ones []

Overall, Men are the best race []

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Roll of Honor Curufin the Crafty
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We're not prideful.

We really are the best.

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Roll of Honor Glorfindel of Los 'lóriol
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quote:
Who wants a Glorfindel? We have a Bifur!
Oh come on now, we all know everyone wants a Glorfindel! []
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Hidalgo
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Who's better: Dwarves, Men or Elves?
The best answer is: a combination of the three (or four if we add Hobbits).An army is better when it has Cavalry, Infantry and Artillery. Elrond knew this: this is why he chose 2 Hobbits, 1 Elf, 1 Dwarf, 2 Men and 1 Maia when he selected the fellows of the Ring (Merry and Pippin were admitted by Gandalf).

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