Minas Tirith Forums
profile | register |
search | faq | avatars | citizens
donate | about | library
  This topic is comprised of pages:  1  2  3  4 
Minas Tirith Forums » The Prancing Pony Archive » Question for Americans (Page 2)
Author Topic: Question for Americans
Roll of Honor Neytari Took-Baggins
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 490

posted      Profile for Neytari Took-Baggins   Author's Homepage   Email Neytari Took-Baggins   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
Athene, if someone wants a gun they can get a gun, if not legally than illegally. Which is why we need sane law-abiding people packing too. Actually, if the Law School shooting is any indication, maybe they don't even need to be loaded...But in a Gun Free Zone someone could massacre quite a few people with just knives or an axe or something. Then again, maybe people would be more up to fighting the guy if he was just armed with close-range weapons (this is assuming he isn't a deadly knife-thrower like in the cartoons).

Pandora's box is opened and guns are out there. We've passed the point of No Guns At All []

I have to go to class now...

[ 04-19-2007, 12:07 PM: Message edited by: Neytari Took-Baggins ]

From: California ainrofilaC | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Éoric of the Riddermark
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 2302

posted      Profile for Éoric of the Riddermark   Author's Homepage   Email Éoric of the Riddermark   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
First of all, I am not arguing constitutional law with a sixteen year old.
Congrats. That may be the most arrogant and ridiculous thing I have ever read on MT (and that's saying something). And, quite frankly, it came across as a complete copout.

Moving on...

As far as the VA shootings prompting gun laws--don't forget that Cho broke existing gun laws to get the guns used in the massacre. Read about this guy and ask yourself if this is a person who would have felt bad about lying and cheating (more than he, in fact, did) to get his hands on a gun. []

And while on the subject of gun laws...

Florida experienced a 41% drop in handgun homocide rates over a period of 10 years after a right-to carry-law was adopted. Over the first five years, only 4 crimes (none involving injury) were committed by licensed firearms; after that, record-keeping stopped due to such a low rate.

A quick review of states that with restrictions on guns comparable to each other reveals gun-related homocide rates that vary by as much as 500%. Apparently the laws aren't the difference...

Washington DC has the strictest handgun laws in the US, yet a higher rate--not number, but rate--of gun-related homocides than any state.

So...what we need are stricter crazy-person control laws..? []

[ 04-19-2007, 12:19 PM: Message edited by: Éoric of the Riddermark ]

From: Wilsonville, OR | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Talan
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 2413

posted      Profile for Talan   Email Talan   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Or do you think he would have found some way to obtain a gun through the black market?

Marijuana is illegal, but if I wanted to find some it wouldn't take much effort.

We should have learned from prohibition that making any commodity illegal across the board just strengthens organized crime. The criminals would be able to get a hold of guns through the black market, but the law-abiding citizen would be helpless. And if that citizen did feel compelled to obtain a weapon through the black market, he would be prosecuted as soon as he used it to defend himself.

From: Austin, TX. Home of awesome. | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Imbëar
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 729
posted      Profile for Imbëar   Author's Homepage   Email Imbëar   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
I'll never give up my guns.

And, in fact, I'll be acquiring a new pistol in
the very near future. I'm also going to purchase
extra ammunition for all of my firearms.

Something we need to remember when discussing the
Right to Bear Arms is the possibility that my arms
might be called upon to protect you, my neighbor,
my compatriot.

I am ready to defend my countrymen.

But I am terrified to think that so
many are unprepared to defend me.


Imbëar

From: Auburn, CA | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Captain of Gondor
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 5254

posted      Profile for Captain of Gondor   Author's Homepage   Email Captain of Gondor   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
I'm willing to fight and die to keep my weapons. I spent the money, I'm keeping the laws, and I'm not the one doing the shooting and killing. As such, you can't punish me for what another person did that day. That's the dang truth.
From: Ririe, Idaho | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Roll of Honor Neytari Took-Baggins
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 490

posted      Profile for Neytari Took-Baggins   Author's Homepage   Email Neytari Took-Baggins   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
Would you be someone I could ask about purchasing my first gun (actually, it would be a Adults In My Household Protection Gun, not mine personally, but I'm the only one interested enough to research), Imbëar? I'll PM you if you wouldn't mind answering a few questions.
From: California ainrofilaC | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Imbëar
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 729
posted      Profile for Imbëar   Author's Homepage   Email Imbëar   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
Neytari, please do!
(By the way, clear your private messages!
I've been trying to PM you for a month!)
If my box is full, let me know []


Imbëar

From: Auburn, CA | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
The Swordmaster
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 1302

posted      Profile for The Swordmaster   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
Thank you all for your answers, it gives me a better idea of what the normal American thinks, rather than our media which often portrays them as all gun-toting crazies []

Having said that, I do have a few more questions that some of the answers have raised.

One is, do you all (the pro-gun lobby), honestly feel that having a gun is the only way to protect yourself?
I ask because we don't have the right to carry guns here in the UK, but I don't feel that I'm any less safe because I don't have a gun in my beside draw (admittedly I collect swords and have at least three of them in my bedroom so...). I'd almost feel less safe knowing that there was a gun in my house that either I, or the person who may have broken into my house, can use to kill someone.

Some people here can own guns, for example my friend's parents own a farm, and they keep some shot guns, but they have to have some very hard to get licenses, and in order to get them had to put in place some strict security measures on their home, and the guns must be kept in a locked cabinet.

Is there not an argument for something along those lines in the States, a stricter law, that allows for people to keep guns, but makes them less freely available?

Whilst I wouldn't argue with those of you who legally own guns, and are law abiding people, but I would say that for me a gun is such a horrifying weapon, and I would ask, does it not worry you that you have on your possession or in your house, something that can kill so easily and quickly?

I'm only asking these questions to expand my knowledge of this issue. I try to be open minded about things I don't understand.

From: Paphos, Cyprus!!! | Registered: Dec 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Inc'
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 6274

posted      Profile for Inc'   Email Inc'   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
I'm willing to fight and die to keep my weapons.
Doesn't it seem a little ironic ? []
By the way, the only situation in which I've ever heard this kind of sentence was someone talking about saving their kids...

quote:
I'd almost feel less safe knowing that there was a gun in my house that either I, or the person who may have broken into my house, can use to kill someone.

I feel the same way...I can't imagine how having always guns around could make me feel safer. I wouldn't trust myself with those things. But that's my opinion, and I still can understand how owning a gun can make someone feel better, even if that's not my case.
From: Yoshi's Island | Registered: Apr 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Eldarion
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 6104
posted      Profile for Eldarion   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
And everyone was friendly and polite as I've seen at any large gathering. I'd say more so. These were normal men and women, not loner "gun nuts", either.
Very true. The average gun owner was raised with a gun since they were young and knows never to point them at another person (except in self defense). I would say 98% of these killers never touched a gun when they were a kid, but played video games about killing innocent people.

edit : Having guns in my house makes me feel much safer, because I know that no one in my family is stupid enough to do something dangerous, and I know how to use one properly and could defend myself or others if the need arose.

[ 04-19-2007, 04:57 PM: Message edited by: Eldarion ]

From: Washington (not D.C.) | Registered: Mar 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Artaresto
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 6089

posted      Profile for Artaresto   Email Artaresto   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
that no one in my family is stupid enough to do something dangerous
Not accusing your family in any way, but no one knows... everyone has the potential [] .

I'm glad too that people don't carry guns around me. I feel safe, and have no need to have guns "protecting". It's a double-edged sword. Better with no guns than lots of them []

From: Forochel | Registered: Feb 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
CloudStrife
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 3483

posted      Profile for CloudStrife   Email CloudStrife   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
I carry a gun, and own several other, and the day they outlaw guns, they can come and take them. All of them. And believe me, I'll be ready.
From: Austin | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Inc'
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 6274

posted      Profile for Inc'   Email Inc'   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
I totally agree with Artaresto.

quote:
I would say 98% of these killers never touched a gun when they were a kid, but played video games about killing innocent people.

Video games aren't the source of all evil, not even of 98% of all evil. Before video games were invented, lots of kids played "the war", which could seem even worse : a kid pretending to kill his own friends...and it seemed more real.
I don't say that video games help, or that they're totally harmless, but it's up to the parents to teach their children to control themselves and that real life is different. Besides, lots of kids play video games and wouldn't harm anyone.
Finally, if kids don't play video games, they still can watch TV, where they can see murders as well, and listen to horrifying things, like this massacre...

From: Yoshi's Island | Registered: Apr 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Roll of Honor pi
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 5374

posted      Profile for pi   Author's Homepage   Email pi   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
Whether or not you agree with the right to bear arms seems immaterial. The 2nd amendment of the US Constitution leaves little wiggle room.
From: Virgo Supercluster, 40º N 75º W | Registered: Mar 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Snöwdog
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 15

posted      Profile for Snöwdog   Author's Homepage   Email Snöwdog   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
One is, do you all (the pro-gun lobby), honestly feel that having a gun is the only way to protect yourself?
First off, anyone who feels they have a right to own guns is not necessarily "the gun lobby". The National Rifle Association is the primary (and most villified) gun lobyist organization, but there are others, with some of them are even more radical (e.g. Gun Owners of America, Citizens Committee for the Right to Keep and Bear Arms). So using "you all" & qualifying it as "gun lobby" seems a bit skewed to me. But its the same as me lumping all anti-gun-rights thinking people together as "Gun-banners lobby" []

Now to your question... The answer in a word is 'no'. knives, baseball bats, swords, chairs, anything one can pick up and clobber an assailant with can be used to protect oneself. Having a gun and KNOWING HOW TO SAFELY USE IT AND STORE IT (emphasized because its very important and is usually left out of conversations on guns) does help in defense and protection.

quote:
Is there not an argument for something along those lines in the States, a stricter law, that allows for people to keep guns, but makes them less freely available?
This is left pretty much to the states with some guidelines from the federal government. Automatic rifles, for example, are illegal for most people, requiring a special permit of ownership which is pretty much impossible to get. There was a ten year moratorium on the sale of many types of semi-automatic rifles that were villified in the media as "assault weapons", and large-capacity semi-auto handgun clips that was barely passed by Congress in 1994, which was one of the main reasons the Democrats lost Congress to the Republicans in the elections later that year. So yeah, the argument is there and is pushed by the gun-ban lobby (e.g. Brady Center, Million moms).
From: In the Shadows of Annuminas | Registered: Aug 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
The Swordmaster
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 1302

posted      Profile for The Swordmaster   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
So using "you all" & qualifying it as "gun lobby" seems a bit skewed to me. But its the same as me lumping all anti-gun-rights thinking people together as "Gun-banners lobby"
The reason for my doing that was that I was aiming my question at all those who were pro-gun so to speak. The question was general so therefore it being directed at a group of people who share a generally similar stance on the legality of carrying guns is justified.

If it had been a more specific question on a particular argument from a particular group of pro gun 'campaginers' then the generalisation would have been wrong, as it is I stand by it. []

From: Paphos, Cyprus!!! | Registered: Dec 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Roll of Honor Neytari Took-Baggins
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 490

posted      Profile for Neytari Took-Baggins   Author's Homepage   Email Neytari Took-Baggins   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
I wondered why no one was PMing me [] I'll clean ASAP.

quote:
One is, do you all (the pro-gun lobby), honestly feel that having a gun is the only way to protect yourself?
Against someone with a gun, I think it's the best way (until I become a master knife-thrower like in the cartoons. Then I'll give it some more thought).

quote:
Some people here can own guns, for example my friend's parents own a farm, and they keep some shot guns, but they have to have some very hard to get licenses, and in order to get them had to put in place some strict security measures on their home, and the guns must be kept in a locked cabinet.

Is there not an argument for something along those lines in the States, a stricter law, that allows for people to keep guns, but makes them less freely available?

That sounds like how it is in California. The problem is, only sane law-abiding people follow those laws. Psycho killers ignore them and we are left with armed psychos and defenseless citizens.

Having a gun in the house would make me feel safer because I know that anyone who breaks into my home intending to do me harm would probably have one. If he's gonna be armed, I need to be armed too.

Just for the record, my grandpa has owned a gun for my whole life, and I knew where he kept it (not sure where it is now, but probably in the same place). On a couple occasions he actually left it out on a bed [] I'd just go tell him and he'd put it away. No one has ever been injured with it.

quote:
I would say 98% of these killers never touched a gun when they were a kid, but played video games about killing innocent people.
Guns don't kill people, people with video games kill people? []

quote:
Video games aren't the source of all evil, not even of 98% of all evil. Before video games were invented, lots of kids played "the war", which could seem even worse : a kid pretending to kill his own friends...and it seemed more real.
I don't say that video games help, or that they're totally harmless, but it's up to the parents to teach their children to control themselves and that real life is different. Besides, lots of kids play video games and wouldn't harm anyone.
Finally, if kids don't play video games, they still can watch TV, where they can see murders as well, and listen to horrifying things, like this massacre...

Hear hear.

quote:
Better with no guns than lots of them
There is never going to be "no guns". There are guns. It is now a question of having only bad guys with guns, or responsible and sane good guys with guns to protect us from the bad guys with guns.
From: California ainrofilaC | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Roll of Honor Kosomot
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 1105

posted      Profile for Kosomot   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
I carry a gun, and own several other, and the day they outlaw guns, they can come and take them. All of them. And believe me, I'll be ready.
So if a police officer says you have to hand out your guns you'll go on a shooting spree? And here I was almost convinced by Neytari that gun owners realize their responsibility.
From: The Hells of Iron | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Madomir
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 3084

posted      Profile for Madomir   Email Madomir   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
The vast majority of gun related civilian deaths involve illegally obtained and possessed firearms. The criminals involved aren't following the current laws and there's no reason to believe they'd obey new ones. Outlawing guns wouldn't disarm the folks we need to disarm thus the whole issue becomes moot.

People were killing unlawfully long before guns were invented and were they abolished, murderous folk would find different methods yet again. I'm certainly not part of the pro-gun lobby, and I don't own a gun, but as an objective, nonaffliated observer, I don't see where outlawing guns would make any difference in the bottom line.

From: northern hemisphere-ish | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Roll of Honor Kosomot
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 1105

posted      Profile for Kosomot   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
I'm certainly not part of the pro-gun lobby, and I don't own a gun, but as an objective, nonaffliated observer, I don't see where outlawing guns would make any difference in the bottom line.
Like said earlier, it works in about every other Western country.
From: The Hells of Iron | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Roll of Honor Athene
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 3473

posted      Profile for Athene   Email Athene   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
I've heard the argument that the legal gun trade makes it easier for the illegal gun trade (more guns on the streets, more opportunities to forge paperwork, etc.). I can see how this would work, although, historically, there have always been shipments of guns intended for military issue that have 'gone astray' so I suppose it's the same thing just in larger quantities.

I guess my problem is that I don't understand why people need guns. I certainly don't need one to defend myself. If someone shot me in the street it wouldn't make any difference if I was armed as well.

E: sp

[ 04-20-2007, 02:24 AM: Message edited by: Athene ]

From: Hades, UK | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Roll of Honor Neytari Took-Baggins
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 490

posted      Profile for Neytari Took-Baggins   Author's Homepage   Email Neytari Took-Baggins   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
I think it would have made a difference if one of the Virginia Tech students was armed.
From: California ainrofilaC | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Fangorn
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 4070

posted      Profile for Fangorn   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
I guess my problem is that I don't understand why people need guns. I certainly don't need one to defend myself. If someone shot me in the street it wouldn't make any difference if I was armed as well.

I Partially agree.
Actually what the world needs is personal force field shields for every one that nothing short of Missiles can penetrate.
Damn the Scientists. WHy aren't they delivering on the worlds most important invention? []

From: Bangalore | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Roll of Honor Kosomot
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 1105

posted      Profile for Kosomot   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
I think it would have made a difference if one of the Virginia Tech students was armed.
Does a gun suddenly turn peopel into heroes? You can't be sure he wouldn't just crap his pants when he heard about the shootings instead of going into firefight with a suicidal maniac.

What if he wasn't sure who was the killer and shot an innocent person? What if he himself snaps one day and starts killing people?

From: The Hells of Iron | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
CloudStrife
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 3483

posted      Profile for CloudStrife   Email CloudStrife   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
So if a police officer says you have to hand out your guns you'll go on a shooting spree?
No if a cop says to give my guns to him, I'm not giving them to him. If he tries to forcefully take them, I'll shoot him, because that's a violation of my constitutional right. I wouldn't be going on a "shooting spree", I would be defending the right that my ancestors fought and died for me to keep.
From: Austin | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Minas Tirith Forums » The Prancing Pony Archive » Question for Americans (Page 2)
This topic is comprised of pages:  1  2  3  4 
 - Printer-friendly view of this topic       The Red Arrow!       Admin Options: Make Topic Sticky   Close Topic   Move Topic   Delete Topic

About  ~ • ~  Contact  ~ • ~  Minas Tirith  ~ • ~  F. A. Q.  ~ • ~  Help

Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classic™ 6.6.1