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Minas Tirith Forums » The Prancing Pony Archive » postmodernism (Page 9)
Author Topic: postmodernism
Roll of Honor Lassë
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Angathas,
quote:
Show me, a Tolkien fan and believer in the objective reality, how Derrida contributed anything important to the meaning of literature
Objective reality is soo 5 minutes ago. You should try radical perspectivism and epistemological relativism. It is just so much more fun.

... but what do you mean when you say "the meaning of litterature"? - are you referring to the interpretation of litterature, or has your belief in objective reality clouded your wits so much that you actually believe that /littarature/ has a meaning that can be added to or taken from? Or maybe even stolen from. I bet you believe that Derrida stole the meaning of you objectively existing litterature.

Essentialist!! []

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Roll of Honor Lassë
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Angathas,
quote:
Show me, a Tolkien fan and believer in the objective reality, how Derrida contributed anything important to the meaning of literature
You don't see Tolkien's religious beliefs and your belief in objective reality as kinda contradictionary? Where would you fit religion into your objective reality? Not to mention litterature. How is religion and aesthetics even possible if the reality is 100% objective?

Essentialist!! []

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Roll of Honor Lassë
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Angathas,
quote:
Show me, a Tolkien fan and believer in the objective reality, how Derrida contributed anything important to the meaning of literature
What you call "anything important" might not be important to everyone else. In fact it most probably isn't. Assuming that what is important to you is important also to everyone else requires that everyone believes in the same objective reality. Ergo, you have requested an action that can only be satisfacionally performed by yourself.

So show yourself that he contributed anything that you think is important to the meaning of litterature. Or show that he didn't.

Essentialist!! []

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Roll of Honor Lassë
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Angathas,
quote:
Show me, a Tolkien fan and believer in the objective reality, how Derrida contributed anything important to the meaning of literature
Objective Schmobjective.

My opinion is different than yours. My opinion is built on the phenomena I encounter in the world. I suppose the same goes for your facts. If there was an objective reality, then there'd a be an objective truth about that reality. How on earth would you access an objective truth about litterature? Or philosophy? Or art? Or love? Or anything important to you?

I think reality has done a pretty good job showing how subjective it is.

Essentialist!! []

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Roll of Honor Lassë
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Angathas,
quote:
Show me, a Tolkien fan and believer in the objective reality, how Derrida contributed anything important to the meaning of literature
/.../ []
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Aina Moja
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5 posts in a row!?!?! I think that's some kind of record!
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Roll of Honor Gna
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Actually, Lassë, I had bigger problems with this part of the post:

quote:
When you do so, please check your left-wing bent at the door.

So, you demand that someone explain Derrida's contributions to you, and then you also expect that they should ignore their own political leanings in the process, Angathas? To make an explanation of postmodern theory palatable to you, we should do what-put on an Ayn Rand Objectivism hat and wave a copy of Atlas Shrugged?

Sorry, I have no such hat and no such book in my left-wing house, and I doubt that Lassë does either. [] I remember reading that Ayn Rand cheated on her husband with a much younger man, and pretty much rubbed her infidelity in his face; nice conservative right-wing values for you there, if true.

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Roll of Honor Wandering Tuor
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 -

"Walking to the Sky," a sculpture by Jonathan Borofsky, rises from New York's Rockefeller Center. Inspired by a story Borofsky's father used to tell him as a child about a friendly giant who lived in the sky.

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Roll of Honor Adulithien
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I just saw WT's post in the words of wisdom thread quoting Lasse on postmodernism and the conservative right (if you need proof, read Fukuyama). And I was suddenly overcome by a desire to unearth this thread.

Except that I'm busy again at work, and have no time to contribute anything at this second but a good, solid *bump.*

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Roll of Honor Lassë
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Well taking my quote at face-value, it would make you a false PoMo, Adu, even though you really give it a good try in the gender-thread []

When I hang out with realists I am the fiercest relativist - hanging out with the academic PoMo lefties I usually swear to hard neuroscience and materialistic dialectics. I'm glad I never had to mark one of the boxes below the headline "Your epistemology" []

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Roll of Honor Adulithien
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[]

Something to take pride in, indeed.

quote:
Well taking my quote at face-value, it would make you a false PoMo, Adu, even though you really give it a good try in the gender-thread
If those are the constraints, then good. []
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Roll of Honor Wandering Tuor
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 -
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Roll of Honor Gna
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[not a stealth bump]

A webpage with many links to sites about post-modernism:

Voice of the Shuttle

[ 09-14-2005, 08:02 AM: Message edited by: Gna ]

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Roll of Honor Lassë
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Wow! Gna, what a Goldmine of.. of.. of interesting things [] []
Too bad the Donna Haraway link doesn't work []
*adds to bookmarks*

This thread must be one of the most randomly bumper threads on MT []

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Roll of Honor Wandering Tuor
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1976-1983 - Postmodernism's Golden Years []
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Roll of Honor Lassë
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Wow, intersting -- I love how Lacan was almost as quoted as Freud []

I'd love to see which ones are the most cited nowadays -- my guess is that:

Maturana & Varela: Tree of knowledge (biology)
Niklas Luhman (communication)
Edward Said: Orientalism (sociology)
Richard Rorty (litt. studies)
Lakoff & Johnson: metaphors we live by (cognitive linguistics)
Sokal & Bricmont: Intellectual Impostures (devils and WT associates)
Joseph LeDoux: The Emotional Brain (cognitive science)
Zigmund Bauman (sociology)
Pierre Bordieu (social sociology)
Michael Tomasello (language)
Kenneth Gergen (psychology)
Ulrich Bech: Risikogesellschaft (social studies)
Anthony Giddens (social studies)
Michel Houllebec (french controversial novelist)
Rene Thom (catastrophe theory)
Marshall McLuhan (Media studies)

... would be high ranking --

Many of the ones mentioned above are not strictly in the humanities, but since humanities are getting increasingly greedy [] -

- weird that I have no real philosophers to put on the list... maybe Luhman would count... hmm...

Any other guesses for the PoPoMo humanities quotation list?

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Roll of Honor Celebrían
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Last week yours truly was privileged to listen to a humanities lecture by Robert Knapp, on Oedipus Tyrannos. He was talking about what makes a classic a classic. He quoted Derrida, saying something like, "Texts must be bio-degradable, enrich the soil of culture. Enigma must remain, i.e. must induce meaning but contains problems we still don't know how to solve."

Derrida began to make sense.

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Grimwulf Stormspear
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Angthas wrote:
"Show me, a Tolkien fan and believer in the objective reality, how Derrida contributed anything important to the meaning of literature."

Lassë replied:
"You don't see Tolkien's religious beliefs and your belief in objective reality as kinda contradictionary?"

Angathas might, but Tolkien would not. [] Tolkien held his religious beliefs to be objectively true.

Angathas & Tolkien would both agree that reality is objective. They would simply disagree agree about which understanding of reality was objectively correct.


As for the general question of postmodernism, well, maybe later... []

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Roll of Honor Lillianna
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mmmm....Derrida []

Deconstructionism me likey! []

*is taking Critical Theoretic Methods to Interpreting Literature right now*

edit: that was weird...I didn't think I had posted to this thread.

*understands Derrida only slightly better now*

Has anyone seen the bio-documentary on him?! Simply titled Derrida?

[ 08-06-2006, 12:56 PM: Message edited by: Lillianna ]

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Roll of Honor Lassë
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Jean Baudrillard dies []
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Eluchil
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Lassëëëë [] []
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Roll of Honor Adulithien
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HEY, LEAF! Empty your PM box, dammit!! Please. []

By the way, I just saw that veeery old crack about my false postmodernism... I'll have you know that after quite a bit of Baudrillard, a dash of Derrida, some Foucault and a pinch of Lacan and Lakoff, I am a different person than you remember!

I've been having such a hard time with the implications of Baudrillard's work, that I can no longer even refer to myself as liberal.
.
.
.
.
Now, the question I came here to ask!

How do we define/interpret action in the postmodern?

Since reading Baudrillard, this thought has obsessed me. And I am entirely self-taught on this matter, so I am very often not aware of who to look to next. I can usually read a book and come up with a few more to read as a result, I but I have no idea where to look on this subject. Does anyone really even deal with it, or it is seen as pointless, impotent and peripheral in all postmodern thought?

[ 04-02-2007, 02:48 PM: Message edited by: Adulithien ]

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Roll of Honor Lillianna
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according to my last literature class (Postmodern Poetry), we are now in post-post modernity. [] []

at least in our chronological timeframe. And how that effects the original theories I'm not sure. In literature theory, at least, branches of postmodern theory morph and change all the time. Which can be a pain.

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Roll of Honor Adulithien
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Sure, but just like Foucault and Saussure can be relevant reading to contextualize postmodernism, postmodern literature will continue to inform anything produced in post-postmodernity, yes?

So I'm wondering about themes of action and/or prohibitions of such things in postmodernism (regardless of what chronological timeframe we're in). All I seem to come across are prohibitions and refusals in favor of other things.

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Roll of Honor Lassë
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I don't know about definitions of 'action' - I don't even know if I consider mytself a postmodernist anymore - postmodern science is a weird concept, since it is basically just science critizism, which can be fruitful to break down myths, but very unfruitful to reach new insight. And as the situation is now (with eg. brain scans) we have amazing new possibilities to reach new insight, so the whole science critizism seem a bit anachronistic.

The whole philosophoical postmodernism (relativistic, social constructivism) are just forms of scepticism that aren't really tied to our age (media, globalization) - even though they are easier to exemplify now - but more just a kind of intellectual path that have been there at all times - look at Hume's "we don't know if the sun will rise tomorrow, we just know that it always did" or Descartes' "you have no way to know if the world we see is just a very realistic lie"... call it solipsism, empiricism, scepticism, or whatever.

So Adu, instead of sticking to PoMo and losing your liberal worldwiev, I think you should try the opposite -- i know it isn't a choice (you can't chose what you believe in), but maybe if you look a bit harder you will see that a lot of the fascination with postmodern theory comes from the fact that it is NOT common-sense. I don't know what it is about common-sense that makes it seem so untasty, but the taste of an idea shouldn't decide your stance towards it.

Oh and p-lease stop mentioning Lakoff as a postmodernist (if that was your point). He's a cognitive scientist (and a linguist and a liberal, etc.), and in the first parts of "Philosophy in the Flesh" (amazing bok, buy it! [] ) he is distancing himself from all earlier philosophical theories including postmodernism on the grounds of cognitice science which is in essens a way to accept that meaning is biologically grounded.

Well, now I never helped you with the 'action' thing -
Here are some general clues you might find interesting:

Maybe look into Donna Haraway's "Cyborg Manifesto" -
It is very political and I would assume she says something about action in a postmodern
If you don't know it already it is an interesting read -
Even if you don't find anything about 'action' there -

Are you familiar with Speech Act Theory? It was 'invented' by Austin - a british philosopher, and actually the mentor of american philosopher Searle - the point is basically that speaking is a form of acting - like in declaring war, promising something, etc.

Okaybthat was all - sorry that the post is a mess - if you wanna contact me then use the emailbutton instead of the PM one []

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