Minas Tirith Forums Create a New Topic  Reply to this Topic
profile | register |
search | faq | avatars | citizens
donate | about | library
  This topic is comprised of pages:  1  2  3 
Minas Tirith Forums » Library Council of Minas Tirith » The End of Arda or the Apocalypse of Tolkien (Page 2)
Author Topic: The End of Arda or the Apocalypse of Tolkien
Mithrennaith
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 5239
posted      Profile for Mithrennaith   Author's Homepage   Email Mithrennaith   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
Eluchil, you're right, I should have written 'adanic'.

As to Hamfast's idea, I was looking for something similar, at least for some quote where the Númenóreans asserted their King's descent from Tuor, and found this in The Lost Road, HoMe V:
quote:
There was a silence. At length Herendil spoke again: 'Of whom dost thou say that our king, Tarkalion, is descended?'
'From Earendel the mariner, son of Tuor the mighty who was lost in these seas.'
'Why then may not the king do as Earendel from whom he is come? They say that he should follow him, and complete his work.'
'What dost thou think that they mean? Whither should he go, and fulfil what work?'
'Thou knowest. Did not Earendel voyage to the uttermost West, and set foot in that land that is forbidden to us? He doth not die, or so songs say.'

- [LRW 1 III ii III:24-28]

The point is developed further, but there is no more mention of Tuor.

e: curious misspelling that the preview didn't show up []

[ 02-03-2008, 03:41 AM: Message edited by: Mithrennaith ]

From: Amsterdam, Netherlands | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Hamfast Gamgee
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 5528

posted      Profile for Hamfast Gamgee   Author's Homepage   Email Hamfast Gamgee   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
I don't think that I do have any direct textual evidence, I'm just thinking about the arguments the King's men would have had to justify having eternal life. It certainly would have been cause for some to complain that 'if it was fine for Tuor, who was born as mortal man, why can't we achieve immortality,' perhaps as a general feeling of discountent.
From: Bagshot Row, Hobbiton, The Shire! | Registered: Sep 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Artaresto
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 6089

posted      Profile for Artaresto   Email Artaresto   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
I agree with you there, Hamfast, the King's Men would naturally have used Tuor to boost their arguments, whether it is stated or not in the literature (external, that is). Not all questions need a quote to give a valid answer. []
From: Forochel | Registered: Feb 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Eluchil
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 5432
posted      Profile for Eluchil   Author's Homepage   Email Eluchil   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
In this thread, Thorin posted :
quote:
Ooh! An exciting statement! So what are the implications?
He did it after I posted this quote :
quote:
When that body was destroyed he was weak and utterly 'houseless', and for that time at a loss and 'unanchored' as it were. We read that he was then thrust out into the Void. That should mean that he was put outside Time and Space, outside Eä altogether; but if that were so this would imply a direct intervention of Eru (with or without supplication of the Valar). It may however refer inaccurately* to the extrusion or flight of his spirit from Arda.

* [footnote to the text] Since the minds of Men (and even of the Elves) were inclined to confuse the 'Void', as a conception of the state of Not-being, outside Creation or Ëa, with the conception of vast spaces within Ëa, especially those conceived to lie all about the enisled 'Kingdom of Arda' (which we should probably call the Solar System).

Myths Transformed, Text VII.

Thorin's question is about the implications of this relating to the Second Prophecy of Mandos.

First of all, there is no clear statement that Morgoth was thrust into the Void or that it is inaccurate.

Second, if it is inaccurate (thus Morgoth is still in Eä), then this quote does not contradict the Second Prophecy but makes it possible : Morgoth could come back.

Third, if it is accurate (thus Morgoth is in the Void), Morgoth's come back has to be allowed by Ilúvatar, which I highly doubt (though Ilúvatar's way ... [] ). What is then the implication on the Second Prophecy ? There would be a clear contradiction. Is that important ? IMHO, no, because of the different nature of these texts :
  • Text VII is a "primary" text, i.e. clearly by Tolkien and without a fictional author; it is thus meant to tell the truth.
  • The Second Prophecy, on the other hand, is clearly said to be a Númenórean legend.
Truth vs. legend, no problem with me []
From: Menegroth, deep under the sea | Registered: May 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Roll of Honor Thorin
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 816
posted      Profile for Thorin   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
I tend to agree.

But I was intrigued by this possibility:

1) If it is accurate and Morgoth is in the Void (outside creation), and
2) If the prophecy is true and he does return, and
3) the return can only be accomplished with the acceptance of Eru.

I’m not sure what “clear contradiction” you are thinking of.

I think it possible that Eru would allow Morgoth to return if that would have the ultimate result of Arda Unmarred. I don’t think it should be rejected out of hand, unless I’m missing something (which is certainly possible).

From: Helsinki | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Eluchil
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 5432
posted      Profile for Eluchil   Author's Homepage   Email Eluchil   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
This is why I posted this :
quote:
(though Ilúvatar's way ... [] ).
But why would Ilúvatar allow that ?
And btw, the ultimate result is not Arda Unmarred but Arda Healed []

Also, I don't believe this is the way Arda Healed whould come. I think the Athrabeth is closer to the truth.

From: Menegroth, deep under the sea | Registered: May 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Amárië
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 5498

posted      Profile for Amárië   Email Amárië   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
But why would Ilúvatar allow that ?
Why would Ilúvatar allow Arda to be marred in the first place?

It could simply be part of the plan, of which Elves, Men and the Valar have no knowledge.

I'm away from my texts right now, but I remember a quote from somewhere (I believe it's from BoLT I but echoed in The Silmarillion) that the world was more beautiful from evil having been...

Could be something to do with that...

EDIT: Ah, here's that quote. It is, indeed from BoLT I.

quote:
Thou Melko shalt see that no theme can be played save it
come in the end of Iluvatar's self, nor can any alter the music
in Iluvatar's despite. He that attempts this finds himself in
the end but aiding me in devising a thing of still greater
grandeur and more complex wonder: -- for lo! through
Melko have terror as fire, and sorrow like dark waters, wrath
like thunder, and evil as far from my light as the depths of
the uttermost of the dark places, come into the design that I
laid before you. Through him has pain and misery been made
in the clash of overwhelming musics; and with confusion of
sound have cruelty, and ravening, and darkness, loathly mire
and all putrescence of thought or thing, foul mists and violent
flame, cold without mercy, been born, and death without
hope. Yet is this through him and not by him; and he shall
see, and ye all likewise, and even shall those beings, who
must now dwell among his evil and endure through Melko
misery and sorrow, terror and wickedness, declare in the end
that it redoundeth only to my great glory, and doth but make
the theme more worth the hearing, Life more worth the liv-
ing, and the World so much the more wonderful and mar-
vellous, that of all the deeds of Iluvatar it shall be called his
mightiest and his loveliest." ~BOLT I, The Music of the Ainur



[ 03-13-2008, 01:31 PM: Message edited by: Amárië ]

From: Mishawaka, IN | Registered: Aug 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Ulairë Gordis
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 5350

posted      Profile for Ulairë Gordis   Author's Homepage   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
But why would Ilúvatar allow [the marring of Arda]? It could simply be part of the plan, of which Elves, Men and the Valar have no knowledge.
I am not at all a specialist on the subject, but I have always wondered:

Middle-Earth unmarred would be like Valinor, wouldn't it?

And Valinor was not at all suitable for the Second-born (see the discours on it by Valinorian delegation to Tar-Ciryatan and Tar-Atanamir).

So - how could Men possibly survive in Arda unmarred? Only thanks to Melkor the race of Men has got a suitable habitat.

From: Minas Morgul | Registered: Feb 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Eluchil
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 5432
posted      Profile for Eluchil   Author's Homepage   Email Eluchil   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
Amá :
quote:
Why would Ilúvatar allow Arda to be marred in the first place?

Because of Free Will.
quote:
It could simply be part of the plan, of which Elves, Men and the Valar have no knowledge.
It could, indeed, but IMHO, it won't. As I said, I believe what the Elves thought is closer to the truth :
quote:
Arda they say will be destroyed by wicked Men (or the wickedness in Men); but healed through the goodness in Men.

Commentary on the Athrabeth, note 7.

UG :
quote:
Middle-Earth unmarred would be like Valinor, wouldn't it?
No, it wouldn't. Though quite preserved, Valinor was also somehow marred : every single physical part of Arda was marred.

quote:
So - how could Men possibly survive in Arda unmarred? Only thanks to Melkor the race of Men has got a suitable habitat.
No, in Arda Unmarred, Men would also have been unmarred []
From: Menegroth, deep under the sea | Registered: May 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Ulairë Gordis
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 5350

posted      Profile for Ulairë Gordis   Author's Homepage   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
Ugh... I think I prefer Men marred and Arda marred - otherwise they would have been unbearably dull. []
From: Minas Morgul | Registered: Feb 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Amárië
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 5498

posted      Profile for Amárië   Email Amárië   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Because of Free Will.
Now this is something I've always had trouble getting my mind around.

Firstly, on a personal level, I don't believe in free will, so maybe that's part of it. Secondly, if everything is in accordance with some greater Plan of Ilúvatar's, as he claims repeatedly (including even the evils of Melkor), how can any will truly be free? If nothing can be done that does not eventually turn back to the Plan - and we can suppose it does not, or Ilúvatar would not be as omniscient and all-powerful as Tolkien claims he is - where does that leave Free Will? If will were totally free, Elves and/or men would be able to turn the Music into complete and utter chaos - and we know that they are not, indeed, able to do this.

So what type of Free Will is this, exactly?

From: Mishawaka, IN | Registered: Aug 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Eluchil
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 5432
posted      Profile for Eluchil   Author's Homepage   Email Eluchil   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
You're mixing Freedom and Free Will []

I always use this simple example : you can decide to fly (= Free Will), but you can't fly (= Freedom), and you will have to face the unwanted result of your decision (= [] ).
In the Legendarium, Free Will exists within the limits of Freedom.

E: smiley.

[ 03-13-2008, 06:30 PM: Message edited by: Eluchil ]

From: Menegroth, deep under the sea | Registered: May 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Amárië
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 5498

posted      Profile for Amárië   Email Amárië   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
Just a "devil's advocate" extension of your metaphor -

But is not your very "will" to fly created by Ilúvatar in accordance with the Plan?

And, secondly, is having the "free-will" to do something that you can't actually do really "free-will" at all? If someone told me I was free to travel the world, it wouldn't really make any difference to me in the course of things, since I don't have the $ to do it...

If I'm understanding this correctly, saying "free will" can only take place within the bounds of "freedom" puts major limitations on the exercise of free will. Because if you don't have the "freedom" to exercise your "free will" then is it really free will at all, or simply a tightly scripted Plan with a little room to wiggle?

Maybe not the right place for this discussion. []

EDIT: Sorry if this doesn't make sense, it's quite hard to articulate.

[ 03-13-2008, 07:08 PM: Message edited by: Amárië ]

From: Mishawaka, IN | Registered: Aug 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Ulairë Gordis
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 5350

posted      Profile for Ulairë Gordis   Author's Homepage   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
I would say it makes perfect sense, Amarië.

I have a feeling that Eru did have a plan and tried to stick to it - but his plan went awry early on. He was unwilling to admit it, though. He tried this and that to quell the disturbance (through his agents, the Valar) but to little avail. And then it so happened that his Second children REALLY started to exercise the much vaunted Free Will - they rebelled and attacked Valinor. Here Old Eru got really pissed and squashed them as flies in his divine anger. The action of a looser...

From: Minas Morgul | Registered: Feb 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Eluchil
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 5432
posted      Profile for Eluchil   Author's Homepage   Email Eluchil   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
UG : it doesn't make sense : Ilúvatar is meant to be omniscient and all-powerful.

Amá :
quote:
Sorry if this doesn't make sense, it's quite hard to articulate.
You're a native - so imagine how difficult it is for me []
quote:
But is not your very "will" to fly created by Ilúvatar in accordance with the Plan?
Perhaps, but what would that bring to the Plan if you're [] ?
quote:
If someone told me I was free to travel the world, it wouldn't really make any difference to me in the course of things, since I don't have the $ to do it...
Logically wrong : you're still able to put yourself in a position to win the $ to do it.
quote:
If I'm understanding this correctly, saying "free will" can only take place within the bounds of "freedom" puts major limitations on the exercise of free will.
"major" is of course a question of point of view.
quote:
Because if you don't have the "freedom" to exercise your "free will" then is it really free will at all, or simply a tightly scripted Plan with a little room to wiggle?
Remember what Gandalf told to Frodo : he was free to accept the quest. IMHO, that's more than a little room - though in any case, the Ring would have been destroyed.
quote:
Maybe not the right place for this discussion.
To have a distinct thread on this would indeed be nice. Not that I don't like to see this being discussed here, but I believe there's no specific thread on this issue here on MT []
From: Menegroth, deep under the sea | Registered: May 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Amárië
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 5498

posted      Profile for Amárië   Email Amárië   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Logically wrong : you're still able to put yourself in a position to win the $ to do it.
Ok, bad example.

[]

Try this one:

If someone told me that I was free to, oh, give birth to a litter of kittens if I wanted to, it wouldn't really mean anything to me, or give me any ability to express my 'free will' on the matter. My choices would still be guided by circumstances of my creation and my nature [in the Tolkien legendarium, both are, of course, controlled by Eru], and therefore, not be 'free will' at all. It would simply have the appearance of 'free will,' but in reality be little more than a tightly scripted plan. Eru might have given his children 'free will' within tightly patroled confines, but I hardly think that this 'free will' would be able to twist the plan in a direction he didn't want it twisted.

And plus, if Eru is "omniscient and all-powerful" then how can anything - even 'free-will' (which he created, of course), be outside of his control? It's a bit of a logical fallacy - if the children of Eru truly exercise 'free-will,' then that means that he is not completely in control of their actions, therefore he isn't 'all-powerful.' []

quote:
You're a native - so imagine how difficult it is for me
Well, you're just special. [] []

quote:
To have a distinct thread on this would indeed be nice. Not that I don't like to see this being discussed here, but I believe there's no specific thread on this issue here on MT
[] I'll see if I can get one up this weekend, after I turn in this stupid paper on 'The effects of the Battle of the Somme on Ulster Unionism.' []
From: Mishawaka, IN | Registered: Aug 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Eluchil
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 5432
posted      Profile for Eluchil   Author's Homepage   Email Eluchil   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
Thanks Ilúvatar, tomorrow is a day off [] (though I "sent my boss on the roses", as we say in French, wich basically means I told him "go and **** yourself [] ).

I love that kind of discussion - this is the core of Tolkien's theology []

quote:
If someone told me that I was free to, oh, give birth to a litter of kittens if I wanted to, it wouldn't really mean anything to me, or give me any ability to express my 'free will' on the matter. My choices would still be guided by circumstances of my creation and my nature [in the Tolkien legendarium, both are, of course, controlled by Eru], and therefore, not be 'free will' at all. It would simply have the appearance of 'free will,' but in reality be little more than a tightly scripted plan. Eru might have given his children 'free will' within tightly patroled confines, but I hardly think that this 'free will' would be able to twist the plan in a direction he didn't want it twisted.
Agreed []
But still, I still believe the left room is quite large. I will allow myself to post again this :
quote:
Remember what Gandalf told to Frodo : he was free to accept the quest. IMHO, that's more than a little room - though in any case, the Ring would have been destroyed.
For Frodo, it was a heavy choice, and it had huge consequences on his life.
quote:
And plus, if Eru is "omniscient and all-powerful" then how can anything - even 'free-will' (which he created, of course), be outside of his control? It's a bit of a logical fallacy - if the children of Eru truly exercise 'free-will,' then that means that he is not completely in control of their actions, therefore he isn't 'all-powerful.'
No : Ilúvatar "evolves" in a Timeless space - so of course He knows everything, and of course He could intervene whenever He wants, so He is always in control. This "Timelessness" is the most difficult part for us, IMHO.
From: Menegroth, deep under the sea | Registered: May 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Amárië
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 5498

posted      Profile for Amárië   Email Amárië   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Remember what Gandalf told to Frodo : he was free to accept the quest. IMHO, that's more than a little room - though in any case, the Ring would have been destroyed.
Yes, but was it already pre-determined that he would do this? It gets complicated, I suppose, but if Eru is all knowing, then he knew from the beginning (even before it happened) that Frodo would accept, and therefore worked it into his plan. Is that truly free will? I suppose I'm having problems reconciling the idea of free will with the concept of an all-knowing and all-powerful diety.

quote:
For Frodo, it was a heavy choice, and it had huge consequences on his life.
Yes, but was it truly a choice? Is anything anyone does ever a choice? See, my father is a Radical Skinnerian Behaviorist, and I was raised to believe that we don't have choices - we simply react in a way dictated by our "genetics, our reinforcement history, and the current setting." My argument here is that Frodo appeared to be making a choice, perhaps, but was he simply being set down the path Eru had meant him to go down all along, with only the appearance of choice?
From: Mishawaka, IN | Registered: Aug 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Eluchil
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 5432
posted      Profile for Eluchil   Author's Homepage   Email Eluchil   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
Difficult, he ? my point is that Ilúvatar pre-knew Frodo's choice, but had Frodo made a different choice, Ilúvatar would have pre-known it.

quote:
I suppose I'm having problems reconciling the idea of free will with the concept of an all-knowing and all-powerful diety.
For me, this is like a game : the game-master is proposing, along his rules, and he sees how players react - though he know how they will react - and still, he lets them free to react (though the consequences are known, = Freedom).

quote:
but was he simply being set down the path Eru had meant him to go down all along, with only the appearance of choice?
Once again, see Gandalf' statement []
From: Menegroth, deep under the sea | Registered: May 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Galin
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 4975
posted      Profile for Galin   Edit/Delete Post 
Maybe Lewis' thoughts in Mere Christianity might help with the general question of time and free will. I can't seem to find my copy, so relying upon: Mere Christianity Leaders' Notes over at Opendiscipleship.org:


quote:
Chapter 3: "Time and Beyond Time" This chapter discusses Time as it relates to Prayer. We live through time. In this reality, we flow in one direction with time. All that is behind us is lost to us, except in our memory. All that is before us is unknown to us. What Lewis is attempting to address here is, "How can God listen to everyone in the world praying at the same time?"

1) God created time
2) God exists beyond time ("outside and above")
3) God is not restricted to time
4) We live in this tiny window of Now, the past behind us, the future before us
5) God can see all of the "Nows" all of all time
6) Example of the author writing the book with the character in the book living in a separate, independent timeline.
7) "But God has no history. He is too completely real to have one."
8) In human language we use terms like "foreknowledge," and "foresaw," and "predestined." These terms are all locked into human reason and human language. We really don't have language to adequately deal with God's presence outside of time.
9) Because of God's presence beyond time, He is able to tell the prophets what is in their future because it is not future to God, but present reality. This allows a view of foreknowledge and predestination that does not violate, in any way, free will and human responsibility. Humans retain personal responsibility in light of "predestination" without the two conflicting.'

Again, obviously Lewis not JRRT but maybe helpful in a more general vein.
Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Amárië
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 5498

posted      Profile for Amárië   Email Amárië   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
I think we all agree except on number nine.

You know, one thing that I think we need to do before we move on (which could be tripping up this conversation) is decide on a definition of what 'free will' actually is.

From: Mishawaka, IN | Registered: Aug 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Artaresto
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 6089

posted      Profile for Artaresto   Email Artaresto   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
my point is that Ilúvatar pre-knew Frodo's choice, but had Frodo made a different choice, Ilúvatar would have pre-known it.
So Ilúvatar pre-knew both possibilities? [] [] Did Frodo's choice change Ilúvatars pre-knowledge? [] []

Omniscience and free will does not work together.

From: Forochel | Registered: Feb 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Eluchil
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 5432
posted      Profile for Eluchil   Author's Homepage   Email Eluchil   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
Frodo's choice was known by Ilúvatar, I was just imagining a "if".

Thanks Galin !

From: Menegroth, deep under the sea | Registered: May 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
The Dread Pirate Roberts
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 2117
posted      Profile for The Dread Pirate Roberts   Email The Dread Pirate Roberts   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
It is hard for us to get our minds around the thoughts of one that exists outside of time because much depends on one's point of view.

Frodo's point of view, as well as all the residents of M-E (unless they may share some of the thoughts of Ilúvatar - late TA Gandalf, perhaps?), is that he is making a free decision of his own devising.

To Ilúvatar, it is as if it has already happened. Everything is as if it has already happened. He isn't forcing Frodo to make a certain decision, he merely knows what the decision will be (as well as all decisions of all people) and has worked his Plan in accordance with those decisions. He is infinitely adaptable and yet has no need to adapt for he has seen all and knows all outcomes and his Plan has already taken those things into account.

I think.
Probably.
Maybe.

From: Blacksburg, VA | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Galin
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 4975
posted      Profile for Galin   Edit/Delete Post 
And Eluchil's example is in accord with Lewis here, though to say that God already knew Frodo's choice before it happened (and so it seems predestined to occur), or that God knew it only 'after' Frodo chose, is to put Eru within our perception of time and try to describe his knowledge using language that is not accurate in this context.

Eru didn't know the choice 'before' or 'after' so to speak; he didn't know it at any time, he knows it outside time in some sort of 'always now' or a state of existence we cannot easily understand or describe (noting too that I have referred to God as a male being in my use of the English language here).

To say it another way, though still inaccurately []

As in the above quote: 'We really don't have language to adequately deal with God's presence outside of time.'

[ 03-14-2008, 01:54 PM: Message edited by: Galin ]

Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Create a New Topic  Reply to this Topic Minas Tirith Forums » Library Council of Minas Tirith » The End of Arda or the Apocalypse of Tolkien (Page 2)
This topic is comprised of pages:  1  2  3 
 - Printer-friendly view of this topic       The Red Arrow!       Admin Options: Make Topic Sticky   Close Topic   Move Topic   Delete Topic

About  ~ • ~  Contact  ~ • ~  Minas Tirith  ~ • ~  F. A. Q.  ~ • ~  Help

Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classic™ 6.6.1