Minas Tirith Forums Create a New Topic  Reply to this Topic
profile | register |
search | faq | avatars | citizens
donate | about | library
  This topic is comprised of pages:  1  2  3 
Minas Tirith Forums » Library Council of Minas Tirith » Where did the Dúnedain live? (Page 2)
Author Topic: Where did the Dúnedain live?
Roll of Honor Herendil
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 1494

posted      Profile for Herendil   Author's Homepage   Email Herendil   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
According to www.dictionary.com, 'fastness' can also mean:
quote:
A remote, secret place
I had imagined that the dwelling would consist mostly of cottages in a village, but since the quote Michael Martinez provided from manuscript 'A' of 'The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen' contains "hidden fastness" it is likely that 'fastness' in this context means a stronghold, fortress, fort or castle, that is hidden. But I do not think it was a city; that seems too big under these conditions. I think it more probable that it was a fortress (perhaps built entirely of wood?). But remember this passage from 'The Passing of the Grey Company':
quote:
‘I have thirty [Rangers] with me,’ said Halbarad. ‘That is all of our kindred that could be gathered in haste; but the brethren Elladan and Elrohir have ridden with us, desiring to go to the war. We rode as swiftly as we might when your [Aragorn's] summons came.’
Does this not seem to imply that not all Rangers were located quite at the same point? Perhaps they were out at some distance in the wild, or their dwellings (cottages, farms?) were at some distance from each other.


Michael Martinez posted:
quote:
The Men of Eryn Vorn may have persisted down to the end of the Third Age, but if so they would have been part of those "secretive hunter-folk" still said to be living in Minhiriath.
'The History of Galadriel and Celeborn', Appendix D: 'The Port of Lond Daer':
quote:
the native folk that survived fled from Minhiriath into the dark woods of the great Cape of Eryn Vorn
quote:
In the time of the War of the Ring the lands were still in places well-wooded, especially in Minhiriath and in the south-east of Enedwaith; but most of the plains were grassland. Since the Great Plague of the year 1636 of the Third Age Minhiriath had been almost entirely deserted, though a few secretive hunter-folk lived in the woods. In Enedwaith the remnants of the Dunlendings lived in the east in the foothills of the Misty Mountains; and a fairly numerous but barbarous fisher-folk dwelt between the mouths of the Gwathló and the Angren (Isen).
I do believe that these Men (or their descendants, or a bigger group they belonged to) are referred to in the above passage, since Eryn Vorn was probably the most significant of the woods in the area, and according to The Encyclopedia of Arda the name indeed means 'the black woods' (thus 'woods' might refer to these woods), and since the passage refers to the time of the War of the Ring, these Men existed at that time.

[ 07-07-2004, 11:06 AM: Message edited by: Herendil ]

From: Nowadays: The Lord of the Rings Fanatics Forum | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Pelranius
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 4629
posted      Profile for Pelranius   Email Pelranius   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
Martin Martinez:

Most interesting, indeed. If true, the irony of the Dunedain living in Rhuduar is noted. Though wouldn't somewhere near Lindon have been a better choice?

From: Brunswick, Maine | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Roll of Honor Thangail
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 1292

posted      Profile for Thangail   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
that could be gathered in haste
No true, it all depends on how long a period of time 'haste' is.
You can't get many people in 5 mins..

From: Capital City | Registered: Dec 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Roll of Honor Herendil
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 1494

posted      Profile for Herendil   Author's Homepage   Email Herendil   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
But did they really have only 5 minutes at their disposal?


Can we then conclude that the primary dwelling and 'base' of the Rangers of the North (being a wandering people) was a fortress of some kind, located in the Angle?

I also suspect that they had a smaller 'base' or meeting place at Deadmen's Dike, since they went there at times.

[ 07-08-2004, 08:00 AM: Message edited by: Herendil ]

From: Nowadays: The Lord of the Rings Fanatics Forum | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Michael Martinez
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 3602
posted      Profile for Michael Martinez   Author's Homepage   Email Michael Martinez   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Most interesting, indeed. If true, the irony of the Dunedain living in Rhuduar is noted. Though wouldn't somewhere near Lindon have been a better choice?
That would really depend on their priorities, which Tolkien did not enumerate. We do know that the heirlooms of the Kings of Arnor (the diadem, the sceptre, and the shards of Narsil) were given to Elrond for safe-keeping. It may be that the Dunedain all settled in Tharbad (which was still inhabited at the time) and only withdrew to the Angle after Tharbad was deserted in 2912.

I think it is clear that Rivendell was perceived as the most powerful community in Eriador. Elrond, of course, was able to call upon Amroth in Lothlorien for help, as well as Cirdan. So, the vicinity Rivendell may have been deemed the safest location for the Dunedain in Eriador for that reason. The Eldar would have remained fairly powerful, capable of raising armies, until the last great exodus of the Elves just prior to the War of the Ring.

-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
Author of Visualizing Middle-earth, Parma Endorion: Essays on Middle-earth, 3rd edition, and Understanding Middle-earth.

A new Middle-earth archive...
Middle-earth.Xenite.Org

From: Seattle | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Michael Martinez
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 3602
posted      Profile for Michael Martinez   Author's Homepage   Email Michael Martinez   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Can we then conclude that the primary dwelling and 'base' of the Rangers of the North (being a wandering people) was a fortress of some kind, located in the Angle?

I also suspect that they had a smaller 'base' or meeting place at Deadmen's Dike, since they went there at times.

I think that, with the dangers posed by the evil creatures living in the Misty Mountains and Eriador, it would have been prudent for the Dunedain to fortify their homes in some respect. But they need not have all been dwelling in one location.

Anything at Fornost Erain would probably have been a temporary camp.

Also, it seems unlikely the Watchers (Rangers) at Sarn Ford were without shelter. They may have had some sort of building there which Tolkien didn't mention. The only stipulation is that, at the time of the War of the Ring, the Bree villages were the only settlements of Men within 300 miles of the Shire.

-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
Author of Visualizing Middle-earth, Parma Endorion: Essays on Middle-earth, 3rd edition, and Understanding Middle-earth.

A new Middle-earth archive...
Middle-earth.Xenite.Org

From: Seattle | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Pelranius
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 4629
posted      Profile for Pelranius   Email Pelranius   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
I don't know if a fort would be considered a proper settlement, or as an in-universe explanation, Sam Gamgee's descendants didn't know everything about the Rangers.
From: Brunswick, Maine | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Roll of Honor Herendil
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 1494

posted      Profile for Herendil   Author's Homepage   Email Herendil   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
I suspect that the Rangers wanted to live close to Rivendell in order to make the collaboration with it easier.

Michael Martinez posted:
quote:
It may be that the Dunedain all settled in Tharbad (which was still inhabited at the time) and only withdrew to the Angle after Tharbad was deserted in 2912.
Maybe.

quote:
Elrond, of course, was able to call upon Amroth in Lothlorien for help, as well as Cirdan.
The Dúnedain passed into the shadows and became Rangers after the North-kingdom ended in 1974, and Amroth drowned already in the well known year 1981; Celeborn and Galadriel reigned in Lórien after him.

quote:
Also, it seems unlikely the Watchers (Rangers) at Sarn Ford were without shelter. They may have had some sort of building there which Tolkien didn't mention.
Maybe. There was a Bridge Inn at the Brandywine Bridge before the ruffians came to the Shire:

'The Scouring of the Shire':
quote:
In the meantime we [Meriadoc, Peregrin, Samwise and Frodo] want a lodging for the night, and as you seem to have pulled down the Bridge Inn and built this dismal place instead, you’ll have to put us up.
Though there was no bridge at Sarn Ford, but was still an entrance over the Baranduin into the Shire, perhaps there also was an inn there, where the Rangers had shelter. But it does not seem from the relevant part in 'The Hunt for the Ring' that there were any others beside the Rangers at the Ford when the Nazgûl made their attack; if there was an inn, some Hobbits would probably have been there as well. But maybe the Rangers had buildings of their own there.

The Rangers obviously stayed at times in Bree, but not permanently.

quote:
The only stipulation is that, at the time of the War of the Ring, the Bree villages were the only settlements of Men within 300 miles of the Shire.
I think that this should be solved this way: Bilbo, Frodo or the translator who wrote that passage did not know about the Men of Eryn Vorn. The essay in 'The History of Galadriel and Celeborn' is an 'explanatory essay' by Tolkien as I call them, and thus what it contains is truth, if you consider them to be canon. On the other hand, I do not think Tolkien remembered that passage when he came up with those Men, but I would still dimiss that passage and rely on the conception of the Men of Eryn Vorn if the issue cannot be solved by thinking of it as an 'insufficient knowledge of the writer' case, since Tolkien found that such Men should exist when he examined the consequences of the actions of the Númenóreans.

[ 07-09-2004, 09:16 AM: Message edited by: Herendil ]

From: Nowadays: The Lord of the Rings Fanatics Forum | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Thingol of Doriath
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 2718

posted      Profile for Thingol of Doriath   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
Random piece of information:

There was an inn a day's journey east of Bree, the Forsaken Inn. Since I don't really think Elves stayed in inns and Hobbits didn't travel... it would seem that there were Men(and Dwarves) travelling around between Rivendell and Bree.

From: Sverige! | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Roll of Honor Herendil
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 1494

posted      Profile for Herendil   Author's Homepage   Email Herendil   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
Yes, it may be that the Forsaken Inn was called 'forsaken' because noone but the Rangers went there, like Deadmen's Dike. But Dwarves used the East-West road a lot; they would naturally want shelter for the night. Thorin's company passed through a country with 'an inn or two' in Eriador during the Quest of Erebor in 2941; perhaps one of them was the Forsaken Inn. It does not explicitly say that they visited it though, but it would perhaps be a natural place of rest for them (in Appendix A Thorin stayed at Bree for the night, presumably at an inn, maybe The Prancing Pony where the meeting with Gandalf took place, which led up to the Quest of Erebor; though this was later changed to take place at the road near Bree (see 'The Quest of Erebor')).

TH, 'Roast Mutton':
quote:
At first they [Thorin's company] had passed through hobbit-lands, a wild respectable country inhabited by decent folk, with good roads, an inn or two, and now and then a dwarf or a farmer ambling by on business.
But there are also other mysterious things regarding that inn:

LR, 'A Knife in the Dark':
quote:
'I don't know if the Road has ever been measured in miles beyond the Forsaken Inn, a day's journey east of Bree,' answered Strider. 'Some say it is so far, and some say otherwise. It is a strange road, and folk are glad to reach their journey's end, whether the time is long or short. But I know how long it would take me on my own feet, with fair weather and no ill fortune twelve days from here to the Ford of Bruinen
Somehow this passage leads me to think about a 'ghost town' that moves along the road, so that travellers who visit or pass the inn by get different feelings about how long the road to the Ford of Bruinen is. But Aragorn seems to know for certain how long it will take him to walk the road; does the effect not concern Rangers?


'The Scouring of the Shire':
quote:
‘Hobbiton’s not their [the ruffians'] only place, is it?’ said Pippin.
‘No, more’s the pity,’ said [Tom] Cotton. ‘There’s a good few down south in Longbottom and by Sarn Ford, I hear; and some more lurking in the Woody End; and they’ve sheds at Waymeet.

This seems to indicate that there were dwellings at Sarn Ford. Maybe there had been an inn there like at the Brandywine Bridge, but the ruffians had pulled it down and built new houses of their own instead. Or, there were no dwellings before the ruffians came.

[ 07-09-2004, 12:18 PM: Message edited by: Herendil ]

From: Nowadays: The Lord of the Rings Fanatics Forum | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Snöwdog
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 15

posted      Profile for Snöwdog   Author's Homepage   Email Snöwdog   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
If you go literally by all Tolkien wrote, then one would think the Rangers would have met, married, and their wives birthed children in Rivendell. But only is this said of Aragorn II, and that Gilraen took him to Rivendell after Arathorn II was slain. So, at the time of the War of the Ring, as quoted earlier by Herendil, there were thirty gathered in haste, alluding to there being more that could not be contacted in short notice.

Common reasoning says they were all about Eriador, and not clustered in Bree, Rivendell, or any other place. They possibly lived and raised families all through the region in unnamed villes and /or settlements. Also, the abandoned city of Annúminas, it was possible for a few to still live about there. Also, due to refugee status caused by the defeat of TA 1974, there may still have been some who lived near the Elven ports in the Grey Havens.

All through the years and the decline of Arnor, and then Arthedain, until the remnents after the war in TA 1974-75 when the men became the Rangers, they still had to live and love, and children were born to carry on the Dúnedain. One can only speculate on this though due to the lack of Tolkien's own writing on the subject.

-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
"I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve."
- Bilbo Baggins

"These Lord of the Rings movies must be taken deep into Mordor and cast back into the fiery chasm from whence they came."

Middle Earth Angling Guide

Avatar: Shadow Ranger
Artwork by Jonathon Earl Bowser

From: In the Shadows of Annuminas | Registered: Aug 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Michael Martinez
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 3602
posted      Profile for Michael Martinez   Author's Homepage   Email Michael Martinez   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Herendil wrote:
I suspect that the Rangers wanted to live close to Rivendell in order to make the collaboration with it easier.

Michael Martinez posted:

quote:It may be that the Dunedain all settled in Tharbad (which was still inhabited at the time) and only withdrew to the Angle after Tharbad was deserted in 2912.

Maybe.

quote:Elrond, of course, was able to call upon Amroth in Lothlorien for help, as well as Cirdan.

The Dúnedain passed into the shadows and became Rangers after the North-kingdom ended in 1974, and Amroth drowned already in the well known year 1981; Celeborn and Galadriel reigned in Lórien after him.

The passage which states that the Dunedain passed into the shadows is one of the "cited" sections in Appendix A. That is, at the beginning of the Appendix, Tolkien wrote:

quote:
...Actual extracts from longer annals and tales are placed within quotation marks. Insertions of later date are enclosed in brackets. Notes within quotation marks are found in the sources. Others are editorial.
And the passage you refer to reads thus:

quote:
'When the kingdom ended the Dunedain passed into the shadows and became a secret and wandering people, and their deeds and labours were seldom sung or recorded. Little now is remembered of them since Elrond departed....'
So, the statement is provided from the perspective of the Hobbits of the Shire (perhaps Merry, perhaps someone later).

In Aranarth's time, however, everyone knew who he and the Dunedain were. The surviving inhabitants of Arnor included AT LEAST the people of the Bree-land, the people of the Shire, Aranarth and his Dunedain, some scattered people in Minhiriath, and the people of Tharbad. There may have been other survivors in that time whose communities eventually died out by the time of the War of the Ring.

So, the Dunedain could hardly have simply vanished from people's memories. They most likely withdrew to some reasonably safe location and started up the Ranger corps (which may have been drawn directly from the surviving soldiers of the Arnorian army). Tharbad would have been a good choice for a safe haven. It had ancient fortifications, it stood at an important crossroads, and it had a harbor capable of handling seaworthy ships. That doesn't mean Aranarth had to settle there, but it was clearly an option for him to consider.

Also, Amroth's fate would not have influenced any decision Aranarth made about where he settled in 1975-77. The Balrog was not awakened until 1980, and by that time Aranarth had put his affairs into order. So, Elrond's friendship/alliance with Amroth would still have been a factor to consider. Rivendell was, at that time, probably the most powerful community in Eriador.

quote:
Though there was no bridge at Sarn Ford, but was still an entrance over the Baranduin into the Shire, perhaps there also was an inn there, where the Rangers had shelter. But it does not seem from the relevant part in 'The Hunt for the Ring' that there were any others beside the Rangers at the Ford when the Nazgûl made their attack; if there was an inn, some Hobbits would probably have been there as well. But maybe the Rangers had buildings of their own there.
"The Hunt for the Ring" is an unfinished text, and there were problems with it. But I don't think Tolkien had given full thought to how the Rangers were supposed to support themselves, or how they were supposed to deploy themselves, either.

For example, Aragorn was lying under a bush along the Great Road between the Shire and Bree, waiting for Frodo and friends to come along. Was that the best cover he could contrive? Or was he simply trying to avoid detection? I'm sure most people would guess the latter reason to be the most likely, but where did all the Rangers who were guarding the Shire actually sleep? Bree was too far for them to get to.

quote:
quote:The only stipulation is that, at the time of the War of the Ring, the Bree villages were the only settlements of Men within 300 miles of the Shire.

I think that this should be solved this way: Bilbo, Frodo or the translator who wrote that passage did not know about the Men of Eryn Vorn. The essay in 'The History of Galadriel and Celeborn' is an 'explanatory essay' by Tolkien as I call them, and thus what it contains is truth, if you consider them to be canon. On the other hand, I do not think Tolkien remembered that passage when he came up with those Men, but I would still dimiss that passage and rely on the conception of the Men of Eryn Vorn if the issue cannot be solved by thinking of it as an 'insufficient knowledge of the writer' case, since Tolkien found that such Men should exist when he examined the consequences of the actions of the Númenóreans.

The Men of Eryn Vorn, being descended from the Gwathuirim, were related to the Folk of Haleth. In The Silmarillion, the Folk of Haleth are said to have dwelt apart. They built only one village relatively late in their history. They generally lived in isolated farms and homesteads, surrounded by hedges (like Beorn's).

I think Tolkien envisioned this kind of lifestyle for all of the Gwathuirim of Eriador, at least until the northernmost group (the Bree-folk) were influenced to settle in permanent towns. So, the Men of Eryn Vorn (and any others living throughout Minhiriath) could have simply lived in isolated farms and still been fairly numerous.

Minhiriath, however, is said to have been plains in the late Third Age. The ancient forests never grew back. So, the hunter-folk could have been reduced to primitive hunter-gatherer status.

-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
Author of Visualizing Middle-earth, Parma Endorion: Essays on Middle-earth, 3rd edition, and Understanding Middle-earth.

A new Middle-earth archive...
Middle-earth.Xenite.Org

From: Seattle | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Michael Martinez
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 3602
posted      Profile for Michael Martinez   Author's Homepage   Email Michael Martinez   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Snowdog wrote:
Common reasoning says they were all about Eriador, and not clustered in Bree, Rivendell, or any other place. They possibly lived and raised families all through the region in unnamed villes and /or settlements. Also, the abandoned city of Annúminas, it was possible for a few to still live about there. Also, due to refugee status caused by the defeat of TA 1974, there may still have been some who lived near the Elven ports in the Grey Havens.

I think everyone agrees that the Rangers were working throughout Eriador.

But I don't believe the Rangers would have exposed their families to the perils of that kind of scattered isolation. The note David Salo uncovered agrees with the statement in "At the sign of the Prancing Pony" that there were no other settlements of Men within 100 leagues (300 miles) of the Shire. The Mitheithel river is about 300 miles from the Baranduin. The chapter also places the Rangers "in the wild lands beyond Bree" (from the Shire) and the narrative says "they roamed at will southwards, and eastwards even as far as the Misty Mountains".

For easy reference, I'll recite David's report here (posted in January 2000):

quote:
There is a short but hardly legible note which Tolkien wrote for insertion into the story of Aragorn and Arwen (and which was not in the event used); it includes information about the location of the Dunedain. Because of the difficulty of the note, the information is not entirely clear, but it suggests that the Dunedain lived in woodlands between the Mitheithel and Bruinen. Source: microfilms at Marquette University, Series 3, Box 9, Folder 3.
I don't think all of the Dunadan Men would have been Rangers, either. But there is nothing in the published texts which addresses the full numbers of the Rangers or their relationship or position within the community of the Dunedain of Arnor.

-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
Author of Visualizing Middle-earth, Parma Endorion: Essays on Middle-earth, 3rd edition, and Understanding Middle-earth.

A new Middle-earth archive...
Middle-earth.Xenite.Org

From: Seattle | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Halion
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 2140
posted      Profile for Halion   Email Halion   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
I don't think all of the Dunadan Men would have been Rangers, either. But there is nothing in the published texts which addresses the full numbers of the Rangers or their relationship or position within the community of the Dunedain of Arnor.
There is an interesting entry in the earliest text of ‘The Tale of Years of the Third Age’ published in HoMe XII: The Peoples of Middle-earth:
quote:
c.1900 Last ‘king at Northworthy [later Norbury]’. The Dúnedain or Rangers (last of the Númenóreans in the North) wander in the wild; but the heirs of the kings live at Imladris (Rivendell) with Elrond.

Here Tolkien does seem to equate the Dúnedain/Númenóreans in the North with the Rangers. Perhaps they were all called ‘Rangers’ simply because they were a wandering people?

[ 01-31-2005, 06:59 AM: Message edited by: Halion ]

Registered: May 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Roll of Honor Herendil
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 1494

posted      Profile for Herendil   Author's Homepage   Email Herendil   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
I found this in ‘The Houses of Healing’:
quote:
‘Not a beggar,’ said Aragorn. ‘Say a captain of the Rangers, who are unused to cities and houses of stone
From this I think you can deduce some more information about how the Rangers lived. Their dwelling(s) in the Angle could not have been so big that it could be called a city; nor did they live in stone houses. Their houses, if they could be called that, were probably built of wood, or were just huts. Maybe they also had a fort, built of wood as well, but a fort is perhaps too big already for them to remain secret. I would guess that they lived in cottages or huts some distance from each other. From David Salo’s report you also get the feeling that there was no city involved:
quote:
the Dunedain lived in woodlands between the Mitheithel and Bruinen
theWhiteLady lay forth the theory that their ‘base’ in the Angle was similar to the refuge of the Rangers of the South, Henneth Annûn. But I do not think the Rangers of the South lived there permanently; and a grot dwelling does not perhaps go so well with the notion that the Rangers of the North were unused to houses of stone. They do seem to be forest and wood-liking people. And besides, as far as I have understood, the Rangers culture of the South was different to that of the North; in the North it was a life-style, while in the South it was a forest warfare tactic. The Rangers of the South maybe all had their actual homes in cities like Minas Tirith, though maybe some lived in Ithilien as well. Comments on this theory?


Snowdog posted:
quote:
If you go literally by all Tolkien wrote, then one would think the Rangers would have met, married, and their wives birthed children in Rivendell. But only is this said of Aragorn II, and that Gilraen took him to Rivendell after Arathorn II was slain.
All the Chieftains after Aranarth the first were fostered in Rivendell:

Appendix A:
quote:
Yet the line of the kings was continued by the Chieftains of the Dúnedain, of whom Aranarth son of Arvedui was the first. Arahael his son was fostered in Rivendell, and so were all the sons of the chieftains after him; and there also were kept the heirlooms of their house: the ring of Barahir, the shards of Narsil, the star of Elendil, and the sceptre of Annúminas.
Of the Rings of Power:
quote:
In that house [the house of Elrond] were harboured the Heirs of Isildur, in childhood and old age, because of the kinship of their blood with Elrond himself, and because he knew in his wisdom that one should come of their line to whom a great part was appointed in the last deeds of that Age.
I am not sure if any Rangers other than the Chieftains dwelt or were fostered there. Maybe some:

Of the Rings of Power:
quote:
In all the days of the Third Age, after the fall of Gil-galad, Master Elrond abode in Imladris, and he gathered there many Elves, and other folk of wisdom and power from among all the kindreds of Middle-earth
Snowdog posted:
quote:
Common reasoning says they were all about Eriador, and not clustered in Bree, Rivendell, or any other place. They possibly lived and raised families all through the region in unnamed villes and /or settlements.
I found this in Of the Rings of Power:
quote:
At length naught was left of them [the Dúnedain of the North] but a strange people wandering secretly in the wild, and other men knew not their homes nor the purpose of their journeys, and save in Imladris, in the house of Elrond, their ancestry was forgotten.
Does this mean that they had several ‘homes’?

quote:
Also, due to refugee status caused by the defeat of TA 1974, there may still have been some who lived near the Elven ports in the Grey Havens.
I do not think that any Rangers lived near the Grey Havens or the Tower Hills, though perhaps they visited the Elf-towers sometimes, since they had once been under Elendil’s control (though built for him by Gil-galad), but they did not visit them to look into the Elendil Stone:

The Road Goes Ever On:
quote:
After the fall of Elendil the High-Elves took back this Stone [the Elendil Stone] into their own care, and it was not destroyed, nor again used by Men.
UT, ‘The Palantíri', note 16:
quote:
Hereditary right to use it [the Elendil Stone] would no doubt still reside in the "heir of Isildur," the recognized chieftain of the Dunedain, and descendant of Arvedui. But it is not known whether any of them, including Aragorn, ever looked into it, desiring to gaze into the lost West. This Stone and its tower were maintained and guarded by Círdan and the Elves of Lindon. [Author’s Note]
This hereditary right of the heirs of Isildur does not seem to concern the High-Elves (probably because the palantíri were given to the Númenóreans by the Elves of Eressëa in the first place), or it would totally contradict their use of the Stone in order to gaze westward in the Third Age.

Also, Appendix A:
quote:
Beyond the Lune was Elvish country, green and quiet, where no Men went;
Though one did not need to go beyond the Lune to come to the Grey Havens, but the Grey Havens were Elvish all the same, and I do not think that Men went there (Rivendell was a bit different, though). Though not Dúnedain, the Men of Eryn Vorn even feared the Elves:

UT, 'The History of Galadriel and Celeborn', Appendix D - 'The Port of Lond Daer':
quote:
the Númenóreans drove great tracks and roads into the forests northwards and southwards from the Gwathló, and the native folk that survived fled from Minhiriath into the dark woods of the great Cape of Eryn Vorn, south of the mouth of the Baranduin, which they dared not cross, even if they could, for fear of the Elvenfolk
Michael posted:
quote:
Tharbad would have been a good choice for a safe haven. It had ancient fortifications, it stood at an important crossroads, and it had a harbor capable of handling seaworthy ships. That doesn't mean Aranarth had to settle there, but it was clearly an option for him to consider.
I am still very doubtful about him ever settling at Tharbad. I do think that after the end of the North-kingdom the Dúnedain quite quickly adopted a wandering life-style; I do not think that they went to dwell in a city like Tharbad before that; it just does not feel right. I mentioned above that the Rangers do not like cities, though it would of course be quite unreasonable to think that they started disliking cities immediately after the end of Arnor, where a great part of them had lived in cities.

quote:
For example, Aragorn was lying under a bush along the Great Road between the Shire and Bree, waiting for Frodo and friends to come along. Was that the best cover he could contrive? Or was he simply trying to avoid detection? I'm sure most people would guess the latter reason to be the most likely, but where did all the Rangers who were guarding the Shire actually sleep?
I do think that they had some place to stay at Sarn Ford:

'Strider':
quote:
I [Aragorn] have often kept watch on the borders of the Shire in the last few years, when he [Gandalf] was busy elsewhere. He seldom left it unguarded. We last met on the first of May: at Sarn Ford down the Brandywine.
And in The Adventures of Tom Bombadil:
quote:
When others went to bed in hay, fern, or feather,
close in the inglenook they laid their heads together,
old Tom and Muddy-feet, swapping all the tidings
from Barrow-downs to Tower Hills: of walkings and of ridings;
of wheat-ear and barley-corn, of sowing and of reaping;
queer tales from Bree, and talk at smithy, mill, and cheaping;
rumours in whispering trees, south-wind in the larches,
tall Watchers by the Ford, Shadows on the marches.

Michael posted:
quote:
I think Tolkien envisioned this kind of lifestyle for all of the Gwathuirim of Eriador, at least until the northernmost group (the Bree-folk) were influenced to settle in permanent towns. So, the Men of Eryn Vorn (and any others living throughout Minhiriath) could have simply lived in isolated farms and still been fairly numerous.
UT, ‘The History of Galadriel and Celeborn’, Appendix D – ‘The Port of Lond Daer’:
quote:
Since the Great Plague of the year 1636 of the Third Age Minhiriath had been almost entirely deserted, though a few secretive hunter-folk lived in the woods.
I think this mainly refers to the Men of Eryn Vorn, and here they are indeed hunter-folk.

[ 01-28-2005, 02:40 AM: Message edited by: Herendil ]

From: Nowadays: The Lord of the Rings Fanatics Forum | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Michael Martinez
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 3602
posted      Profile for Michael Martinez   Author's Homepage   Email Michael Martinez   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
I do apologize for my long absences. My time is short, these days, and I spend most of my available online discussion time participating in my own forums.

In any event, Herendil, I've read your citations and conclusions, and I don't really have anything to offer in addition or rebuttal. Except, perhaps, to point out that Aragorn was being diplomatic in the hopes of avoiding a possible fallout with Denethor (whom he did not know was dead at the time he spoke those words).

Nonetheless, I would agree that Aragorn would not have spoken falsely. The Dunedain of Arnor (possibly equated by Tolkien with the Rangers in the full sense) probably did not build permanent settlements.

But Tharbad WAS a Dunadan city. Regardless of whether Aranarth settled there, it is most probable that SOME Dunedain continued to live there until 2912.

[ 01-27-2005, 11:03 PM: Message edited by: Michael Martinez ]

-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
Author of Visualizing Middle-earth, Parma Endorion: Essays on Middle-earth, 3rd edition, and Understanding Middle-earth.

A new Middle-earth archive...
Middle-earth.Xenite.Org

From: Seattle | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Pelranius
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 4629
posted      Profile for Pelranius   Email Pelranius   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
True enough. Where did the inhabitants of Tharbad go after the flood of 2912?
From: Brunswick, Maine | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Hidalgo
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 1083
posted      Profile for Hidalgo   Edit/Delete Post 
Possible to Gondor, the only Dunedain realm where they could be safe.
Mind you, it is just my guess.

From: Madrid - Spain | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Roll of Honor Herendil
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 1494

posted      Profile for Herendil   Author's Homepage   Email Herendil   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
Michael posted:
quote:
In any event, Herendil, I've read your citations and conclusions, and I don't really have anything to offer in addition or rebuttal. Except, perhaps, to point out that Aragorn was being diplomatic in the hopes of avoiding a possible fallout with Denethor (whom he did not know was dead at the time he spoke those words).
Yes, indeed he says this earlier, when Éomer is wondering whether he will enter the City:
quote:
‘But I deem the time unripe; and I have no mind for strife except with our Enemy and his servants.’
But like you said, Aragorn would most likely not speak like I quoted in my last post just in order to have a reason not to enter the City. He did feel partly like a Ranger still, though he, Isildur’s heir, stood outside the Gate of the City of the Kings.


quote:
The Dunedain of Arnor (possibly equated by Tolkien with the Rangers in the full sense) probably did not build permanent settlements.
But if these settlements were not more or less permanent, why would Tolkien write a note on their location?

Here is one more instance of Tolkien equating the Rangers with the last of the Dúnedain of the North. So I think it is settled:

UT, ‘The Istari’:
quote:
His [Gandalf’s] alliance was primarily with Elrond and the northern Dúnedain (Rangers).
Michael posted:
quote:
But Tharbad WAS a Dunadan city. Regardless of whether Aranarth settled there, it is most probable that SOME Dunedain continued to live there until 2912.
UT, ‘The History of Galadriel and Celeborn’, Appendix D – ‘The Port of Lond Daer’:
quote:
A considerable garrison of soldiers, mariners and engineers had been kept there [at Tharbad] until the seventeenth century of the Third Age. But from then onwards the region fell quickly into decay; and long before the time of The Lord of the Rings had gone back into wild fenlands.
This seems to contradict (maybe not wholly) the statement in The Tale of Years that Tharbad was deserted in 2912 when floods destroyed Minhiriath and Enedwaith. I believe that here the cause is the Great Plague of 1636-7. We have:

Appendix A:
quote:
In the days of Argeleb II the plague came into Eriador from the Southeast, and most of the people of Cardolan perished, especially in Minhiriath. The Hobbits and all other peoples suffered greatly, but the plague lessened as it passed northwards, and the northern parts of Arthedain were little affected. It was at this time that an end came of the Dúnedain of Cardolan, and evil spirits out of Angmar and Rhudaur entered into the deserted mounds and dwelt there.
This also suggests that most of the population of Cardolan (and thus probably also Tharbad) perished at the time of the Plague in 1636-7. So maybe there was was not much of a town left in 1974 for the Dúnedain to come to. And I do think that Tolkien meant that all cities of the Dúnedain were in ruin and/or abandoned in 1974 (at least by the Dúnedain), when they became a wandering people.


About Tolkien envisioning a “dwelling apart” kind of lifestyle for all of the Gwathuirim of Eriador: it is correct at least for the Dunlendings (here is also a reference to how the Plague affected Dunland which was fairly close to Tharbad):

UT, ‘The Battles of the Fords of Isen’, Appendix (ii):
quote:
The Dunlendings suffered, like all the peoples of Arnor and Gondor, in the Great Plague of the years 1636-7 of the Third Age, but less than most, since they dwelt apart and had few dealings with other men.
Here is a quote that establishes The Prancing Pony as a resort of Rangers:

‘At the Sign of The Prancing Pony’:
quote:
The Inn of Bree was still there, however, and the innkeeper was an important person. His house was a meeting place for the idle, talkative, and inquisitive among the inhabitants, large and small, of the four villages; and a resort of Rangers and other wanderers, and for such travellers (mostly dwarves) as still journeyed on the East Road, to and from the Mountains.
In my last post I mentioned the Rangers of Ithilien, and speculated that they lived in cities though they were working as Rangers in Ithilien; I found this in ‘Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit’:
quote:
They [the two men guarding Frodo and Samwise] named themselves Mablung and Damrod, soldiers of Gondor, and they were Rangers of Ithilien; for they were descended from folk who lived in Ithilien at one time, before it was overrun. From such men the Lord Denethor chose his forayers, who crossed the Anduin secretly (how or where, they would not say) to harry the Orcs and other enemies that roamed between the Ephel Dúath and the River.
So it seems that even though the people who were working as Rangers could not live permanently in Ithilien at the time of the War of the Ring, they were originally descended from people of Ithlien and knew that land well. Their culture was probably slightly different than that of the townsfolk as well. But did they have the same kind of life-style as the Rangers of the North before Ithilien was overrun? And opinions on the theory that the fastness of the Rangers of the North in the Angle was similar to the refuge of the Rangers of the South at Henneth Annûn, please?

I should point out that I will write an essay for the Library Council about this topic.

[ 02-11-2005, 03:11 PM: Message edited by: Herendil ]

From: Nowadays: The Lord of the Rings Fanatics Forum | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Michael Martinez
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 3602
posted      Profile for Michael Martinez   Author's Homepage   Email Michael Martinez   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
I don't have time to fully reply today, but I'll come back this evening or later this weekend.

Tolkien used figuratively language a little more liberally than many people today are used to. When he spoke of people not knowing where the Dunedain made their homes, he was being inspecific about whether there was one community or many. That ambiguity heightens the mystery surrounding the Dunedain.

As far as the wandering lifestyle goes, that is more a characteristic of the visible element of the Dunadan society: the Rangers. While their families may have maintained a nomadic or semi-nomadic existence, I seriously doubt that is what Tolkien meant.

But the Angle could have been their homeland, where every generation or so they could have built a new village or fortress, if indeed they were living in such places. It was a large region in which to dwell. But the investment in time and labor in relocating a community is quite large. The Rangers would have had to stop patrolling Eriador while they moved their families.

-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
Author of Visualizing Middle-earth, Parma Endorion: Essays on Middle-earth, 3rd edition, and Understanding Middle-earth.

A new Middle-earth archive...
Middle-earth.Xenite.Org

From: Seattle | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Michael Martinez
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 3602
posted      Profile for Michael Martinez   Author's Homepage   Email Michael Martinez   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Herendil wrote:

Michael posted:
quote:
But Tharbad WAS a Dunadan city. Regardless of whether Aranarth settled there, it is most probable that SOME Dunedain continued to live there until 2912.
UT, ‘The History of Galadriel and Celeborn’, Appendix D – ‘The Port of Lond Daer’:
quote:
A considerable garrison of soldiers, mariners and engineers had been kept there [at Tharbad] until the seventeenth century of the Third Age. But from then onwards the region fell quickly into decay; and long before the time of The Lord of the Rings had gone back into wild fenlands.
This seems to contradict (maybe not wholly) the statement in The Tale of Years that Tharbad was deserted in 2912 when floods destroyed Minhiriath and Enedwaith....
I don't see a contradiction between texts. Tharbad was abandoned in 2912 and the War of the Ring began in 3018. That's over 100 years, which is a long time for Tolkien (and his readers).

Tharbad, by the way, was not located in Minhiriath, but rather stood just outside that region. Minhiriath was the land between the rivers Gwathlo and Baranduin.

Now, was Tharbad part of Cardolan? Technically, we don't know. I have always assumed it was. But then, why should the Dunedain of Tharbad perish in the Great Plague and its other people not? That seems strange. However, as there seems to have been a Tharbad up until the year 2912, there is no reason to assume that Aranarth could not have dwelt there. He would have had the option of either joining an existing population or of re-establishing the old town.

I think Tolkien only meant that other towns, and the vast majority of the people spread across Cardolan, perished.

In any event, he would have felt constrained to abide by what had been previously published (in most cases). He had, in fact, altered the materials in LoTR's appendices after receiving galley proofs for the second edition of The Hobbit, because (apparently) he either felt he could not make substantial changes to The Hobbit or else he felt that the changes he had suggested earlier (and which the publisher took up into the revised text without consulting him) worked better.

quote:
In my last post I mentioned the Rangers of Ithilien, and speculated that they lived in cities though they were working as Rangers in Ithilien; I found this in ‘Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit’:

quote:
They [the two men guarding Frodo and Samwise] named themselves Mablung and Damrod, soldiers of Gondor, and they were Rangers of Ithilien; for they were descended from folk who lived in Ithilien at one time, before it was overrun. From such men the Lord Denethor chose his forayers, who crossed the Anduin secretly (how or where, they would not say) to harry the Orcs and other enemies that roamed between the Ephel Dúath and the River.
So it seems that even though the people who were working as Rangers could not live permanently in Ithilien at the time of the War of the Ring, they were originally descended from people of Ithlien and knew that land well. Their culture was probably slightly different than that of the townsfolk as well. But did they have the same kind of life-style as the Rangers of the North before Ithilien was overrun? And opinions on the theory that the fastness of the Rangers of the North in the Angle was similar to the refuge of the Rangers of the South at Henneth Annûn, please?
The Rangers of Ithilien were a very different body from the Rangers of Eriador. We don't know what the function of Eriador's Rangers was. I have inferred, mostly based on linguistic evidence, that the northern Rangers were a sort of police-force, preserving the former dominions and inhabitants of the High Kings until their monarchy could be restored.

The Rangers of Ithilien were part of Gondor's army, and as such acted in concert (at least on occasion) as a large unit or groups of units. Faramir's ambush shows that he was able to muster several hundred men quickly enough to intercept a large column of enemy troops marching through Ithilien.

Eriador had no similar need at the time of the War of the Ring. Now, there had been Orc incursions, but the Rangers of Ithiliens don't seem to have been able to deal with them in force. Presumably, they would have had to hunt the Orcs group-by-group and take back any lands the Orcs would seize.

Remember that Aragorn said that Butterbur lived within a days' march of foes who would freeze his heart. Many people assume Aragorn means the Barrow-wights, but Tolkien is not obligated to limit himself only to the creatures mentioned in the story.

As for what the hidden fastness in the Angle might have been, I doubt it would have been a grotto like Henneth Annun. It could have been a shelted valley between hills. The region was heavily wooded and very hilly. But I don't know anything else about it.

There is no argument to offer against its being a grotto, except that Tolkien probably would have avoided reusing that idea. He wanted each region to be unique. One of the things which made Ithilien unique was Henneth Annun.

-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
Author of Visualizing Middle-earth, Parma Endorion: Essays on Middle-earth, 3rd edition, and Understanding Middle-earth.

A new Middle-earth archive...
Middle-earth.Xenite.Org

From: Seattle | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Roll of Honor Herendil
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 1494

posted      Profile for Herendil   Author's Homepage   Email Herendil   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
When he [Tolkien] spoke of people not knowing where the Dunedain made their homes, he was being inspecific about whether there was one community or many. That ambiguity heightens the mystery surrounding the Dunedain.
Yes, I agree.

quote:
As far as the wandering lifestyle goes, that is more a characteristic of the visible element of the Dunadan society: the Rangers. While their families may have maintained a nomadic or semi-nomadic existence, I seriously doubt that is what Tolkien meant.
Since Tolkien explicitly stated that the Dúnedain lived in the Angle, I think that their families lived more or less permanently there. Concerning the notion ‘Rangers’; I think it is quite clear from the quotes earlier in the thread that when Tolkien mentions Rangers of the North in a descriptive fashion he means the Dúnedain of the North as a whole. When a character, for example Barliman Butterbur, mentions them he is thinking about the visible element; the Rangers who visit Bree, and really maintain a Ranger-lifestyle.


quote:
I don't see a contradiction between texts. Tharbad was abandoned in 2912 and the War of the Ring began in 3018. That's over 100 years, which is a long time for Tolkien (and his readers).
If I expand my quote slightly:

quote:
Before the decay of the North Kingdom and the disasters that befell Gondor, indeed until the coming of the Great Plague in Third Age 1636, both kingdoms shared an interest in this region, and together built and maintained the Bridge of Tharbad and the long causeways that carried the road to it on either side of the Gwathló and Mitheithel across the fens in the plains of Minhiriath and Enedwaith. A considerable garrison of soldiers, mariners and engineers had been kept there until the seventeenth century of the Third Age. But from then onwards the region fell quickly into decay; and long before the time of The Lord of the Rings had gone back into wild fenlands.
Here the Bridge of Tharbad is mentioned, and it seems that the maintenance of it ceased when the garrison was removed because of the Plague. If there were any people left, why did they not continue to maintain the Bridge? And if Aranarth came there in 1974, could he not repair and start maintaining the Bridge again? I believe that the condition of the Bridge, that of the town, and that of the people who lived there goes hand in hand; if the Bridge and/or the town becomes ruinous, that means that there are no people living there anymore.

Also, consider again the two last lines in my quote. In my opinion ‘region’ is a reference to the whole area, including the town itself. So I think that according to the passage, it is quite clear that the town became ruinous, and that there were no inhabitants. So in 1974, if Aranarth went there, it would have been almost like going to the Deadmen’s Dike (Fornost in ruins), which does not seem to have been a greater, permanent dwelling of the Rangers, perhaps only a meeting place, and since Aranarth did not go to the ruins of Fornost or Annúminas, why would he go to the ruins of Tharbad? I think that it would be out of line of Tolkien’s themes if at the fall of Arnor there would still be a city in which the Northern Dúnedain continue to live. All their cities must be in ruins.

Michael posted:
quote:
I think Tolkien only meant that other towns, and the vast majority of the people spread across Cardolan, perished.
I do think that pretty much the end of Cardolan happened already at the time of the Plague. Cardolan is not mentioned much after that. I also noticed this in UT, ‘The History of Galadriel and Celeborn’ (part of it has been quoted before in this thread):
quote:
Since the Great Plague of the year 1636 of the Third Age Minhiriath had been almost entirely deserted, though a few secretive hunter-folk lived in the woods. In Enedwaith the remnants of the Dunlendings lived in the east in the foothills of the Misty Mountains
That describes the state of the population in Minhiriath and Enedwaith immediately after the Plague, so if Tharbad belongs to either of them (I am not sure about it) then it seems that it was pretty much empty of people already then.

In ‘The Tales of Years’ Tharbad was ruined when floods devastated Enedwaith and Minhiriath, but it may be that Tolkien changed his mind about this, and put the decay of the region of Tharbad backwards in history. Also in UT, ‘The History of Galadriel and Celeborn’ we read about the felling of most of the trees in Minhiriath and Enedwaith by the Númenóreans in the Second Age. The essay is written c. 1967-9, so I am thinking that Tolkien had not come up with that yet even when the revised 2nd edition of LR was published in 1966. In ‘The Tale of Years’ it sounds as if the woods of Enedwaith and Minhiriath were destroyed in the floods, but if they were already destroyed in the Second Age, that entry is a bit abundant. So maybe because of this, and also because Tolkien realised that there cannot be a functioning Tharbad in the 3rd milliennium of the Third Age, the decay of Tharbad was also set back. I certainly think that it would be quite outrageous if there were still in 2912 some Dúnedain living a normal life in Tharbad like nothing had happened, while the rest had a Ranger-type of lifestyle.

Michael posted:
quote:
But then, why should the Dunedain of Tharbad perish in the Great Plague and its other people not? That seems strange.
Did Cardolan really have any considerable population of other people?


quote:
There is no argument to offer against its being a grotto, except that Tolkien probably would have avoided reusing that idea. He wanted each region to be unique. One of the things which made Ithilien unique was Henneth Annun.
I offered an argument against it being a grotto earlier in the thread; that the Rangers do not seem to be used to stone. But in my opinion Tolkien has plenty of reuses, so to me it would not be surprising if it indeed were a grotto.

[ 03-16-2005, 07:36 AM: Message edited by: Herendil ]

From: Nowadays: The Lord of the Rings Fanatics Forum | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Numenorean_guy
Soldier of Gondor
Citizen # 4944
posted      Profile for Numenorean_guy   Email Numenorean_guy   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
Rangers probably stayed where there task was centered at otherwise, they would be on patrol so staying at inns for a night and moving on
From: The sunken isle of Numenore | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
haymik
Soldier of Gondor
Citizen # 5115
posted      Profile for haymik   Email haymik   Edit/Delete Post 
they lived in Eraidor
From: harad | Registered: Mar 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Michael Martinez
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 3602
posted      Profile for Michael Martinez   Author's Homepage   Email Michael Martinez   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Herendil wrote:

Since Tolkien explicitly stated that the Dúnedain lived in the Angle, I think that their families lived more or less permanently there. Concerning the notion ‘Rangers’; I think it is quite clear from the quotes earlier in the thread that when Tolkien mentions Rangers of the North in a descriptive fashion he means the Dúnedain of the North as a whole. When a character, for example Barliman Butterbur, mentions them he is thinking about the visible element; the Rangers who visit Bree, and really maintain a Ranger-lifestyle.

That would imply that there were little Ranger boys and girls frollicking in the woods, and I don't believe that at all.

The idiom is somewhat chauvinistic. When Tolkien speaks of "Men", he means all Humans (generally), which includes women, boys, and girls. But there were no little boys or girls running around in the mannish armies in any of the stories.

There were Dunedain in Gondor who didn't serve in the army. We know about the Master of the Houses of Healing, for example (who may or may not have been a Dunadan, but he certainly was not a soldier). Denethor seems to have servants (such as the grooms who cared for his horses) who were possibly not soldiers (we don't know, but they are not referred to as soldiers).

Therefore, we can conclude that not all men of Gondor were soldiers of Gondor.

By extension, we can therefore infer that not all Dunedain of Gondor were soldiers of Gondor.

We don't KNOW whether either of this notions is true, but the text supports both the conclusion and the inference.

Hence, we have to ask what in the texts implies that all the male Dunedain of Eriador were Rangers? In fact, nothing does. Tolkien speaks of the Dunedain as a race and as individual peoples (Dunedain of Arnor, Dunedain of Gondor). He uses the term somewhat figuratively in different contexts.

quote:
Here the Bridge of Tharbad is mentioned, and it seems that the maintenance of it ceased when the garrison was removed because of the Plague. If there were any people left, why did they not continue to maintain the Bridge?
For the same reason Gondor abandoned the fortresses in Mordor. They didn't have the manpower to keep huge armies in the field any longer. But Gondor didn't abandon its other cities. Nor did Arnor abandon Fornost.

Since Tolkien says that Tharbad remained inhabited until 2912, it remained inhabited until 2912. You're seeking a contradiction that doesn't exist.

If there was a military reason to keep a garrison at Tharbad (and I suspect it would have been a threat of attack from the Dunlendings), I would say that reason was removed by the Great Plague.

Centuries later, when the Dunlendings had recovered their numbers, the Rohirrim had to take them on, so the military threat no longer encroached upon Gondor's inhabited territories.

quote:
...And if Aranarth came there in 1974, could he not repair and start maintaining the Bridge again?...
With what resources (Arnor had just been wiped off the map)? And for what purpose?

The ruinous bridge was eventually replaced by a ford. Boromir lost his horse trying to cross the ford.

quote:
That describes the state of the population in Minhiriath and Enedwaith immediately after the Plague, so if Tharbad belongs to either of them (I am not sure about it) then it seems that it was pretty much empty of people already then.
I pointed out previously that Tharbad was not part of Minhiriath, which ended about 1/3 to midway up the length of Cardolan's territory.

-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
Author of Visualizing Middle-earth, Parma Endorion: Essays on Middle-earth, 3rd edition, and Understanding Middle-earth.

A new Middle-earth archive...
Middle-earth.Xenite.Org

From: Seattle | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Create a New Topic  Reply to this Topic Minas Tirith Forums » Library Council of Minas Tirith » Where did the Dúnedain live? (Page 2)
This topic is comprised of pages:  1  2  3 
 - Printer-friendly view of this topic       The Red Arrow!       Admin Options: Make Topic Sticky   Close Topic   Move Topic   Delete Topic

About  ~ • ~  Contact  ~ • ~  Minas Tirith  ~ • ~  F. A. Q.  ~ • ~  Help

Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classic™ 6.6.1