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Minas Tirith Forums » Library Council of Minas Tirith » Where did the Dúnedain live? (Page 1)
Author Topic: Where did the Dúnedain live?
Madomir
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Where did the Dúnedain live?

Aragorn was met by i think 30? or so of the rangers near the ford of Isen, plus Aragorn was in direct lineage from father to son from Isildur, which obviously means there had to be at least as many women of Numenorean descent around. Not to mention elderly folk and children. So where did they all live? i know the heirs of Isildur were housed at Rivendell in their youth but i don't recall any references to the dwellings of the rest of the rangers of the north.

Edit: inserted bold title

[ 07-26-2005, 01:36 AM: Message edited by: Madomir ]

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Lembas Baker, Inc
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They had to be very secretive, but Fornost is mentioned...
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Ithildin
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I think the shores of Evendim at Annuminas was mentioned. []
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Roll of Honor Thangail
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They lived in eriador around (well near) rivendell, I think. Don't have the books to hand, but there is an area near there where it has been mooted they lived. The angle, i think, if I aint going senile.
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The Last of the Noldor
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You are not going senile. I have read a disscusion on that very same idea somewhere else. I know where it is but I know how to get the link up put it on here.
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Lembas Baker, Inc
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If you know WHERE they are, do you know how many?
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The Last of the Noldor
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Read this. It made sense to me but it is not a proven fact because the good professor did not say where they lived exactly. http://www.suite101.com/article.ctm/tolkien/64660

[ 02-23-2003, 10:14 PM: Message edited by: The Last of the Noldor ]

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Cernunnos
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Tho' it is nowhere stated, I have a theory that the Dúnedain 'civilians' - women, children, the elderly - probably took refuge in Rivendell during the war of the Ring. Some Rangers would stay behind to guard them and strengthen the defences of Rivendell in case it was attacked (as it was not but could well have been).

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Whereas the light perceives the very heart of the darkness, its own secret has not been discovered.

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Erinti
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In this map, near the upper left corner, are two places marked "camp" - I think they could be settlements of the Dúnedain. (The map is by no means "official" so, this is just my speculation.)
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Faramir Took
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You have a point. Those camps might have been strategicly placed camps to protect The Shire.

[ 03-22-2003, 08:33 AM: Message edited by: Faramir Took ]

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Luthien
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It could be conceivable that some of the women lived in Bree and vicinity, sine there were men and Hobbits there, and the Rangers did their part to protect the town.
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Elessar Telcontar
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I would guess that the Dunedain lived in Bree. I believe there is a quote saying that Butterbur gave them homes in Bree for protecting him and his inn.
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Arnkell
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Well then you must find this quote so we can have peace of mind. []
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Dark Lord Andúril
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Well, it is obvious they come inot Bree occassionaly. As Butterbur refers to Strider as one of the rangers plural. It could be, like Aragorn, they lived nomadic lives, moving round as a community. Much like the travellers do today?
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Roll of Honor Herendil
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Like Michael Martinez says in his article, according to a note that can be found among JRRT's papers at Marquette University, the Rangers lived in the Angle.

[ 05-30-2004, 06:08 PM: Message edited by: Herendil ]

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Orofacion of the Vanyar
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That makes sense considering the proximity to Rivendell as well as that area being fenced by rivers making it easily defended. This would also account for Arador's (Aragorn's grandfather) death in the Cold Fells, considering their proximity as well.

Curious however that the remnant of the northern Dunedain would settle around what was Rhudaur, the first to fall to the Witch-King as well as rumors of its last two kings not even being descended from Isildur. Why not Arthedian near Lindon? Emyn Uial would provide excellent cover and isolation as well as it being closer to the Shire, of which they strived to maintain. Perhaps that area still left a bitter taste in the Dunedain's mouth, so to speak. Maybe that line was closer in thought and heart to Elrond's house.

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Roll of Honor Herendil
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I think it had to do with the fact that the Rangers had much collaboration with Elrond. And like Orofacion of the Vanyar said, the area of former Arthedain perhaps left a bitter taste in the mouths of the Dúnedain, as their cities of Annúminas and Fornost were in ruin, so it is understandable if they wanted to settle somewhere else. Though in Appendix A, 'The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen' there is a very general statement about where Gilraen's people lived:

quote:
After a few years Gilraen took leave of Elrond and returned to her own people in Eriador


[ 06-12-2004, 05:34 AM: Message edited by: Herendil ]

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Thingol of Doriath
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Trouble is... Eriador is a very large place.

Bree is the only major "Big People" settlement remaining in Eriador during the War of the Ring.

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Roll of Honor Herendil
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Appendix A:
quote:
'When the kingdom [of Arnor] ended the Dúnedain passed into the shadows and became a secret and wandering people
'At the Sign of The Prancing Pony':
quote:
He [Strider] is one of the wandering folk -Rangers we [the Men of Bree] call them.
Maybe the Angle was their 'base'.

[ 06-12-2004, 07:42 AM: Message edited by: Herendil ]

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Erinti
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Now, this is just my speculation... But, I think that in the Angle, they might have lived in scattered well-hidden small communities or houses in the woods, much like many ancient Finns (and probably also Scandinavians), or had a semi-nomadic lifestyle like some Native American peoples. While the men were wandering and keeping a watch on the Enemy, their families certainly needed a more permanent place to dwell in.
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Pelranius
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During the talk with Butterbur in RotK, Gandalf said the Rangers ventured up into Fornost occasionally.
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Roll of Honor Herendil
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'Homeward Bound':
quote:
‘Up away by Deadmen’s Dike?’ said Butterbur, looking even more dubious. ‘That’s haunted land, they say. None but a robber would go there.’
‘The Rangers go there,’ said Gandalf. ‘Deadmen’s Dike, you say. So it has been called for long years; but its right name, Barliman, is Fornost Erain, Norbury of the Kings.



[ 07-07-2004, 08:53 AM: Message edited by: Herendil ]

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Michael Martinez
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Rhudaur was considered to be in Eriador. So, technically, was Rivendell in at least one writing.

In an early version of "The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen", Tolkien wrote: "Ere the Elder Days were ended, before the War of the Ring, there was a man named Dirhoel, and his wife was Ivorwen daughter of Gilbarad, and they dwelt in a hidden fastness in the wilds of Eriador; for they were of the ancient people of the Dunedain, that of old were kings of men, but were now fallen on darkened days...."

In January of 2000, David Salo shared the following information on the Internet:

quote:
There is a short but hardly legible note which Tolkien wrote for insertion into the story of Aragorn and Arwen (and which was not in the event used); it includes information about the location of the Dunedain. Because of the difficulty of the note, the information is not entirely clear, but it suggests that the Dunedain lived in woodlands between the Mitheithel and Bruinen. Source: microfilms at Marquette University, Series 3, Box 9, Folder 3.
A fastness is a stronghold, fortress, fort, or castle.

Many years ago, when I speculated (wrongly) that the Dunedain might have lived in the Hills of Evendim or the North Downs, David Salo pointed out that the three trolls in The Hobbit (in the chapter "Roast Mutton") had raided farms or communities in the vicinity of the bridge near which they were camped when Bilbo and the Dwarves discovered them (he inferred this from the fact they were eating valley mutton, valley sheep -- most likely domesticated sheep). They had, at that point in the story, driven all the local people away (according to Gandalf at the end of the chapter).

Of course, this part of the story was written long before there were any Dunedain, long before those lands had been incorporated into the as-yet non-existent Eriador. The lands were just a generic region of a poorly defined imaginary landscape.

One of the changes which Tolkien made to "Roast Mutton" in 1966, for the third edition of The Hobbit, was to add the ancient stone bridge over the (unnamed) river Hoarwell (the first river Thorin and Company crossed, putting them in Rhudaur).

Another change he made was to replace "Policemen never come so far and the map-makers have not reached this country yet" with "Travellers seldom come this way now. The old maps are no use: things have changed for the worse and the road is unguarded."

The original edition includes the sentence, "They have seldom even heard of the king round here." Douglas Anderson speculates, in the second edition of The Annotated Hobbit, that "the mention here of the king is probably not meant to refer to an actual personage but instead to invoke the idea of the king as the theoretical source of justice, law, and order."

Tolkien indirectly referred to this passage in the Prologue to The Lord of the Rings, where he wrote in "Of the Ordering of the Shire":

quote:
There remained, of course, the ancient tradition concerning the high king at Fornost, or Norbury as they called it, away north of the Shire. But there had been no king for nearly a thousand years, and even the ruins of Kings' Norbury were covered with grass. Yet the Hobbits still said of wild folk and wicked things (such as trolls) that they had not heard of the king. For they attributed to the king of old all their essential laws; and usually they kept the laws of free will, because they were The Rules (as they said), both ancient and just.
This is an example of how The Hobbit forced Tolkien to write part of The Lord of the Rings a certain way. Or, perhaps it would be better to say that this was one of those fortuitous passages which lent itself so well to fleshing out the Hobbits' world in The Lord of the Rings.

However, it introduces a small of mystery to the region, in that the Hobbits (and Dwarves) believe the people of Rhudaur, at the end of the Third Age, are lawless wild folk (except for the Elves, of course). They don't know exactly who those people are who live in the region.

The crucial passage in "At the sign of the Prancing Pony", which ties all this together (and which I and others overlooked years ago before David pointed out the obvious to us), is the third paragraph:

quote:
In those days no other Men had settled dwellings so far west, or within a hundred leagues of the Shire. But in the wild lands beyond Bree there were mysterious wanderers. The Bree-folk called them Rangers, and knew nothing of their origin. They were taller and darker than the Men of Bree and were believed to have strange powers of sight and hearing, and to understand the languages of beasts and birds. They roamed at will southwards, and eastwards even as far as the Misty Mountains; but they were now few and rarely seen. When they appeared they brought news from afar, and told strange forgotten tales which were eagerly listened to; but the Bree-folk did not make friends of them.
There remains one apparent inconsistency between this passage and a later text, however. In the lengthy citation published in Appendix D, "The Port of Lond Daer", to "The History of Galadriel and Celeborn" in Unfinished Tales, it is said that the Numenoreans eventually drove some of the Gwathuirim north away from the Gwathlo river into the forst of Eryn Vorn (the woods on the western coast of Eriador, just south of Harlindon). This extended citation is drawn from an essay discussing the etymology of the names of various rivers. The full essay has never been published as a single piece, but the opening portion was cited by Christopher Tolkien in Unfinished Tales and the rest of it (or most of the remaining text) was published by Carl Hostetter under the title "The Rivers and Beacon-hills of Gondor" in Volume 42 (July, 2001) of the journal Vinyar Tengwar.

The Men of Eryn Vorn may have persisted down to the end of the Third Age, but if so they would have been part of those "secretive hunter-folk" still said to be living in Minhiriath. They were too few in number to establish any large villages or towns as there were in the Shire and Bree.

It may be significant that Gilraen's maternal grandfather was named Gilbarad. Her name is said, in "The Rivers and Beacon-hills of Gondor', to have been one of a set reserved for the daughters of Dunadan chieftains and their close kin. Tolkien doesn't say whether the Dunedain men had similar reserved names, but I think it is doubtful that Aragorn and the other chieftains had common names. So, perhaps Halbarad, whom Aragorn addressed specifically as "kinsman" in The Lord of the Rings, was a descendant of Gilbarad.

I don't know what kind of fastness Tolkien would have envisioned. The Dunedain should have been able to build with stone, but could a stone fortress have remained hidden? Well, there are plenty of lost cities and fortresses which escaped notice for centuries or even thousands of years. And some archaeological sites have only been spotted through satellite photography. So it is conceivable that Aragorn's people had a small fortified city somewhere in Rhudaur, perhaps near the confluence of the Hoarwell (Mitheithel) and Loudwater (Bruinen) rivers. That region had at one time been a homeland for some of the Stoors. So it is also conceivable that the hidden fastness was more toward the center of the Angle (southern Rhudaur, between the two rivers).

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Roll of Honor Thangail
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But would they have been able to hide all their farmland etc that would be needed to support the population as well? Or did people not go looking for it due to the fact they

quote:
were believed to have strange powers of sight and hearing, and to understand the languages of beasts and birds. They roamed at will southwards, and eastwards even as far as the Misty Mountains; but they were now few and rarely seen. When they appeared they brought news from afar, and told strange forgotten tales which were eagerly listened to; but the Bree-folk did not make friends of them.
and so would not want to get involved with strange 'Elvish folk'.
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Michael Martinez
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I doubt that many people in Bree would have gone as far as the Angle (300 miles from home). The remoteness of their settlement(s) would have protected the Dunedain more than anything else.

[ 07-07-2004, 10:07 AM: Message edited by: Michael Martinez ]

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Author of Visualizing Middle-earth, Parma Endorion: Essays on Middle-earth, 3rd edition, and Understanding Middle-earth.

A new Middle-earth archive...
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