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Minas Tirith Forums » Library Council of Minas Tirith » Where was Celeborn when Galadriel went to the Grey Havens? (Page 3)
Author Topic: Where was Celeborn when Galadriel went to the Grey Havens?
Halbarad
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No, WH, I refuted your unfounded assertions with direct quotes from J.R.R. Tolkien's Lord of the Rings. If that's "thin air" I'd like more of it! []
Why don't you pull some quotes which support your latest "fact"?

quote:
WH: You're just pulling refutations out of thin air, so there's no need to counter them; however the fact is that the Three Rings were never visible, until they travelled to the Havens.

Obviously the Three had the power to remain invisible long after the One Ring was destroyed... so it stands that their other powers would remain as well, to some extent.

(But of course, that will just mean that they must have pulled them off and carried them in their pockets....right?

1. Truly Samwise did not "see" Nenya, but whether that's a property of Nenya, or of Galadriel's own considerable ability, is not given. To suppose that each of Three Rings was invisible to everyone else is speculation, not fact. The owners kept them hidden and it was not permitted to speak of them openly, but whatever the case may be, this has no genuine bearing because

2. where are the Three Rings featured in the story (or Appendices) "long after" the One Ring was destroyed? Only at the Grey Havens a relatively short time thereafter, the scene where the author finally reveals the identity of the Elven ring bearers and these rings' names to tie up loose ends.

Now to clarify matters further with material from Tolkien's Letters:

quote:
"The Elves of Eregion made Three supremely beautiful and powerful rings, almost solely of their own imagination, and directed to the preservation of beauty: they did not confer invisibility."

"Though unsullied , because they were not made by Sauron nor touched by him, they were none-the-less partly products of his instruction, and ultimately under control of the One. Thus, as you will see, when the One goes, the last defenders of High-elven lore and beauty are shorn of power to hold back time, and depart."

There's much more, another longer letter (pgs 235-6) about the Elves' rings, and as Sauron and the One were destroyed "their little efforts at preserving the past fell to bits." So Elrond's guess (and Galadriel's knowing) was right -they "failed" and became inert jewelry as soon as The One went into Orodruin. If they had not been tied to The One, then they would not have failed, and Elrond and Galadriel might have stayed in Middle-earth longer, perhaps through another age.

[ 03-14-2011, 09:45 PM: Message edited by: Halbarad ]

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Madomir
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quote:
You're just pulling refutations out of thin air, so there's no need to counter them;
Out of thin air? [] Halbarad's post has a lower 'assumption per word' ratio than yours.
quote:
TWH: This was supported by the fact that, as Treebeard said, the inrush of Orcs following the Fall of Barad-Dur, still could not get into Lorien "thanks to the power that dwells there" (i.e. Nenya).
~~~~~~~~~~~
Likewise, Galadriel was able to destroy Dol Goldur after she went North from Isengard, using Nenya as well.

Assuming that Nenya was at work in these instances may seem a natural thing to do at first glance, but was it ever actually written that way? When one considers that a single man is worth many orcs in battle, it seems entirely plausible that the orcs would find Lorien impenetrable when held by a host of Galadhrim warriors/archers.

As for Dol Guldur, it makes perfect sense that Galadriel would use tricks of the trade learned from Melian, ala Luthien. Especially when there was a clear precedent set for this type of action.

We are told explicitly that Lorien and Imladris are enhanced by the Three. To use TWH's own 'logic' from a previous debate, although I disagree with the notion of a steadfast inclusion by omission rule, in this instance wouldn't the absence of such a mention imply that Nenya wasn't used in the above instances? An omission of that nature on a more benign subject is understandable but especially when discussing something as noteworthy as the use of the Three, a mention of Nenya's influence would seem appropriate. Barring the discovery of a clearer description in the text, Halbarad's explanations hit nearer the mark for me. []

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Halbarad
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quote:
Madomir
As for Dol Guldur, it makes perfect sense that Galadriel would use tricks of the trade learned from Melian, ala Luthien. Especially when there was a clear precedent set for this type of action.

Galadriel was definitely not the She-Hulk able to bench 50 tons! [] If I had to guess, I would say that she accomplished this destruction (and "cleansed" the forest) by singing a "song of power". That's how Luthien strove against Sauron, and this is how the Ainur (includes Melian) helped to create the world.

[ 03-14-2011, 07:31 PM: Message edited by: Halbarad ]

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The White Hand
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Luthien beat Sauron a capella? And here I thought she fainted, and her dog bit him...

However as for Galadriel, she attributed her power to protect Lorien, entirely to Nenya. If she could throw down forts by her own ability, then she really wouldn't need a fancy Green-Lantern energy ring... in fact, she expressly told Frodo that her land wasn't protected by singing beneath the trees. []

I also wouldn't compare Luthien or Galadriel with Melian, whose girdle stretched entirely around Doriath so that even Melkor couldn't get through. Now that is one extra-strong corset!

quote:
1. Truly Samwise did not "see" Nenya, but whether that's a property of Nenya, or of Galadriel's own considerable ability, is not given. To suppose that each of Three Rings was invisible to everyone else is speculation, not fact. The owners kept them hidden and it was not permitted to speak of them openly,
So you're attributing to Galadriel, Gandalf and Elrond the ability to make things invisible... but only their Rings of Power, since we never see them do it anywhere else-- just like with their ability to travel on horseback in broad daylight to the Havens, without being seen by anyone, but again they never do it anywhere else.

quote:
Where are the Three Rings featured in the story (or Appendices) "long after" the One Ring was destroyed? Only at the Grey Havens a relatively short time thereafter, the scene where the author finally reveals the identity of the Elven ring bearers and these rings' names to tie up loose ends.
"The author" now was Sam, who wrote the story after Frodo left for the Havens. However the story had already stated that Galadriel bore Nenya, so that was out; but now it was visible to Sam as well, who couldn't see it earlier.

As for Narya and Vilya, now Sam could see these as well, and so he wrote this in the Red Book; whereas Frodo could only see Nenya after he looked in the Mirror, and saw the Eye of Sauron.
However this brings up an intersting question: could Frodo see the Three Rings after the One was destroyed?

Apparently not-- or at least there's no mention of it, despite that he sees Gandalf, Galadriel and Elrond afterward. Therefore we can speculate that either Frodo lost this ability to see the Three, or else they weren't wearing them... I go with the first option, which means that the Rings also kept the power to hide themselves.

Meanwhile, the Elves only left for the Havens because the Three lost their power; as Galadriel tells Frodo, the destruction of the One would result in the Elves leaving Lorien, for that very reason. And so, it would stand that they left when the Rings lost their power-- not before, and not after.

As for Letters, some of these were written before LotR was even finished; you note that Tolkien writes that "the Elves of Eragion" made the Three, but he writes later in UT that all Three were crafted soley by Celebrimor, who was later captured by Sauron and forced to reveal their existence to him.

[ 03-18-2011, 09:33 PM: Message edited by: The White Hand ]

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Galin
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The Steward And The King includes (Gandalf speaking): '… For though much has been saved, much must now pass away; and the power of the Three Rings also is ended.'

[ 03-23-2011, 11:02 AM: Message edited by: Galin ]

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The White Hand
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That was May 1, however.
Also this is a figurative statement, it doesn't mean that it happened instantly. Rather if it didn't happen immediately, then it would be gradual-- and there's no indication that it was immediate.

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Galin
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quote:
TWH wrote: 'As for Letters, some of these were written before LotR was even finished; you note that Tolkien writes that "the Elves of Eragion" made the Three, but he writes later in UT that all Three were crafted soley by Celebrimor, who was later captured by Sauron and forced to reveal their existence to him.'
The date of a given text can certainly be important, but in any case the draft letter to Michael Straight (just one of the citations raised by Halbarad above) is dated 1956, thus after the publication of The Lord of the Rings. It reads in part...

quote:
'The Three Rings were 'unsullied', because this object was in a limited way good, it included the healing of the real damages of malice, as well as the mere arrest of change; and the Elves did not desire to dominate other wills, nor to usurp all the world to their particular pleasure. But with the downfall of 'Power' their little efforts at preserving the past fell to bits.' JRRT
And: 'Thus, as you will see, when the One goes, the last defenders of High-elven lore and beauty are shorn of power to hold back time, and depart.'

... was written in 1954, after The Lord of the Rings -- the tale proper -- was finished, and in response to Naomi Mitchison who had been reading page-proofs of the first two volumes. Although one could quibble with the word 'finished' of course, it's not as if this letter was written in the late 1930s or early 1940s.

The description that the Three 'did not confer invisibilty' hails from the famous Waldman letter of 'probably late in 1951' (Letters), and so still after the tale proper was 'finished'.

quote:
TWH wrote: 'Likewise, Galadriel was able to destroy Dol Goldur after she went North from Isengard, using Nenya as well.'
Minor note: it's Dol Guldur not 'Goldur'; although to be fair 'Goldur' actually appears at least once in one of my editions.

quote:
TWH wrote: 'That was May 1, however.'
June 25 according to my editions []

[ 03-25-2011, 10:23 AM: Message edited by: Galin ]

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The White Hand
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That's even later then.
Again, none of the Three Rings were visible until the end. The phrase "the Rings did not confer invisibility," obviously refers to the wearer becoming invisible when wearing them, as with the other Rings; meanwhile the Rings themselves clearly did become invisible, as proven at Lorien when Frodo gained the ability to see Nenya after seeing the Eye of Sauron, while Sam couldn't see it at all-- nor could anyone else.

And so likewise, since again the Rings were not visible until they departed Middle-earth several years later, there's no reason to believe that the Rings lost their other powers immediately either. Rather, again, there's only two possible explanations:

1) the Rings's powers faded gradually, or
2) the Rings lost their power immediately, and they simply stopped wearing them.

#2 seems much less likely, since there would be no reason for them to suddenly dress up for the trip to the Havens, but not to their daughter's and grand-daughter's Royal Wedding.

In contrast, your claim that the Rings were hidden by Elvish magic, is entirely unwarranted and without marit. If the Elves had any Harry Potter "invisibility cloak" ability to make the Rings invisible, they never showed it otherwise-- so there's no reason to believe that they had such power at all; and conversely there's plenty of reason to believe they didn't have any such power, since such Romulan cloaking-devices would have proven quite useful to them, rather than relying on Elvish camo-gear like the type given to the Fellowship.

Even Feanor never came up with anything conferring invisibility; rather, only Sauron's craft managed that.

[ 03-29-2011, 04:35 AM: Message edited by: The White Hand ]

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Artaresto
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quote:
Even Feanor never came up with anything conferring invisibility
Does it say anywhere that he tried?
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Galin
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quote:
That's even later then.
Yet still well before Elrond and Galadriel sailed -- referring again to Gandalf simply stating (at this time) that the power of the Three Rings is ended.


Anyway you say the Three did not confer invisibility upon the wearers (based on Tolkien's letter already quoted above). And you also seem to say that Galadriel herself doesn't have the power to make Nenya invisible, yet also that the Three were invisible in any case.

But wouldn't Nenya be 'conferring invisibility' if Galadriel using her ring (again if she can't achieve this herself), uses its power to hide... her ring?


quote:
In contrast, your claim that the Rings were hidden by Elvish magic, is entirely unwarranted and without marit.
For clarity, Halbarad raised this possibility... since you responded initially to my post (at least to the date I noted) but made no indication who 'your claim' refers to later in the same post.

[ 03-30-2011, 04:04 AM: Message edited by: Galin ]

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The White Hand
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"Ended" could be a tentative statement; again, Gandalf wasn't wearing a visible Ring on his finger, so where was it? And if the Ring had no more power, why would he hide it?

The plausible answer is that it still had power, and so he kept it invisible while that power lasted.

quote:
But wouldn't Nenya be 'conferring invisibility' if Galadriel using her ring (again if she can't achieve this herself), uses its power to hide... her ring?
Not under the proper definition of "conferring," which means making someone else invisible-- not itself.
Likewise, that's clearly not the context of the other Rings, i.e. the Three didn't make the wearer invisible like the others did; but there's no mention of whether the Three could make themselves invisible.

Meanwhile it's entirely possible that Celebrimor imbued the Three Rings with this power after he hid them from Sauron, in order to keep them hidden from sight even while they were worn.


quote:
quote: --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In contrast, your claim that the Rings were hidden by Elvish magic, is entirely unwarranted and without marit.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

For clarity, Halbarad raised this possibility... since you responded initially to my post (at least to the date I noted) but made no indication who 'your claim' refers to later in the same post.

The point remains: the Rings were invisible, but Elvish magic never makes anything else invisible; again, the Elvish cloaks of Lorien are nothing like Harry Potter's cloak of invisibility, but are more just fancy camo; nor do we see anything of the sort elsewhere.

On the contrary, only Sauron's craft could do this-- and only by transferring the person or object to the Unseen "wraith-world," in whole or in part.

So there's no reason to believe that the Three Rings were made invisible by any craft, other than that of the Ring itself.

[ 04-01-2011, 02:55 PM: Message edited by: The White Hand ]

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Galin
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quote:
"Ended" could be a tentative statement; again, Gandalf wasn't wearing a visible Ring on his finger, so where was it? And if the Ring had no more power, why would he hide it? The plausible answer is that it still had power, and so he kept it invisible while that power lasted.
In general perhaps you make too much of the lack of mention of the Three in the story.

quote:
Galin wrote: But wouldn't Nenya be 'conferring invisibility' if Galadriel using her ring (again if she can't achieve this herself), uses its power to hide... her ring?

TWH responded: Not under the proper definition of "conferring," which means making someone else invisible-- not itself.

Well I think my statement is still true as it stands, given that confer simply means 'to grant or bestow' -- I see nothing wrong with stating that Nenya 'grants' its powers to the wearer, who can use or direct these powers. But that was only to help nail down your theory anyway, which seems to be…

quote:
Likewise, that's clearly not the context of the other Rings, i.e. the Three didn't make the wearer invisible like the others did; but there's no mention of whether the Three could make themselves invisible.
… so you mean the Three make themselves invisible? and thus they have been imbued with _a_ power of invisibility -- and despite being supremely powerful among the Elven Rings, the Three do nothing else with invisibility?

Here's the fuller quote:

quote:
'… And finally they had other powers, more directly derived from Sauron (…): such as rendering invisible the material body, and making things of the invisible world visible.

The Elves of Eregion made Three supremely beautiful and powerful rings, almost solely of their own imagination, and directed to the preservation of beauty: they did not confer invisibility.

Seems to me that Tolkien would like to distance the Three from Sauron by including this bit about invisibility -- and the Three making themselves invisible, though less in measure obviously, is 'the power of invisibility' still.

quote:
Meanwhile it's entirely possible that Celebrimor imbued the Three Rings with this power after he hid them from Sauron, in order to keep them hidden from sight even while they were worn.
I would guess the reason you raise this idea is because there's no great reason to have made the Three invisible initially.

So you suggest Celebrimbor did this later, and in part to keep the Three hidden from sight even while the Three were worn -- that is, the Elves planned to wear the rings after Celebrimbor had perceived the designs of Sauron? and while Sauron still had the One on his finger (nor could the Elves know it would someday be taken from him)?


quote:
The point remains: the Rings were invisible, but Elvish magic never makes anything else invisible; again,...
Well I guess my point 'remains' too then [] which concerned being clear in the thread when attributing claims to people.
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White Gold Wielder
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Sorry to let this off-topic excursion go on for so long, but this business about this rings should be discussed elsewhere.

-> Perhaps here? <-

If there are important points here, they should be copied and quoted in a new thread or the one above to try to keep things less fragmented.

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The White Hand
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Seeya there!
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Create a New Topic  Reply to this Topic Minas Tirith Forums » Library Council of Minas Tirith » Where was Celeborn when Galadriel went to the Grey Havens? (Page 3)
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