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Minas Tirith Forums » Library Council of Minas Tirith » Where was Celeborn when Galadriel went to the Grey Havens? (Page 2)
Author Topic: Where was Celeborn when Galadriel went to the Grey Havens?
Orofacion of the Vanyar
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Ah yes, it must ultimately come down to that shouldn't it. Thank you, Eryndil for bringing us all back "down to earth." Tolkien's conception of Celeborn at the time of the LotR was that he was Sindarin.

So therefore we must assume differently when considering the mentality of that elf. However my initial argument doesn't change much. I still believe Tolkien thought the ban on Galadriel existent during the LotR, therefore the chance to finally go home was probably far too tempting to her after being in exile for so long. Again, Celeborn quite simply didn't want to leave yet, being enamored still of the land of Middle-earth.

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Roll of Honor Herendil
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Actually Tolkien's conception of Celeborn when he wrote LR (excluding the appendices) was that he was a Nando or even Avar; then when he later wrote the appendices Celeborn had become a Sinda. CT expresses this well in his introduction to 'The History of Galadriel and Celeborn' in UT:
quote:
Thus, at the outset, it is certain that the earlier conception was that Galadriel went east over the mountains from Beleriand alone, before the end of the First Age, and met Celeborn in his own land of Lórien; this is explicitly stated in unpublished writing, and the same idea underlies Galadriel's words to Frodo in The Fellowship of the Ring, where she says of Celeborn that "He has dwelt in the West since the days of dawn, and I have dwelt with him years uncounted; for ere the fall of Nargothrond or Gondolin I passed over the mountains, and together through ages of the world we have fought the long defeat." In all probability Celeborn was in this conception a Nandorin Elf (that is, one of the Teleri who refused to cross the Misty Mountains on the Great Journey from Cuiviénen).
On the other hand, in Appendix B to The Lord of the Rings appears a later version of the story; for it is stated there that at the beginning of the Second Age "In Lindon south of the Lune dwelt for a time Celeborn, kinsman of Thingol; his wife was Galadriel, greatest of Elven women."



[ 08-21-2004, 06:32 PM: Message edited by: Herendil ]

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Roll of Honor Eryndil
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By the same argument, Herendil, you could almost say that Tolkien's conception of Aragorn was that he was a hobbit (as he first appeared as Trotter). []
Another interesting question of 'Authority'. My feeling would be that what Tolkien was happy to publish would carry more weight than earlier intentions. I also get the feeling that if he had lived as long as Bilbo he would still be revising, and we might even have further revised editions of The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings!

-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
Bilbo (Bilbo) Bilbo Baggins -
He's only three feet tall!
Bilbo (Bilbo) Bilbo Baggins -
The bravest little hobbit of them all!

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Roll of Honor Herendil
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Personally I rely on Tolkien's latest thoughts in this case (as in most cases): that Celeborn was a Teler of Valinor, though it might not work so well with some elements (for example that Galadriel leaves Middle-earth before him, even though they were both High Elves and arrived on the Hither Shore at the same time).
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Arnkell
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Yes, I also feel we have to respect and abide by the author's most recent motives and plans for his project.
As an aside, was it so that he purposed to change all the C's to K's on the "ultimate" versions of the Silmarillion and LOTR??? To eliminate the chance of people pronouncing Celeborn Seleborn? And Sirith Ungol?

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Galin
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quote:
The key to 'who was Celeborn at the time of the writing of LotR' lies, I think, in these words of Galadriel (emphases are mine):

"For the Lord of the Galadhrim is accounted the wisest of the Elves of Middle-earth, and a giver of gifts beyond the power of kings. He has dwelt in the West since the days of dawn, and I have dwelt with him years uncounted; for ere the fall of Nargothrond or Gondolin I passed over the mountains, and together through ages of the world we have fought the long defeat."

Note the varying use by Galadriel of I, he, we. We can assume, therefore, that when Galadriel says I she does not include Celeborn, for otherwise she says we.

From this we can deduce the following: (...) Galadriel passed over the mountains (clearly the Ered Luin) alone. Her use of 'For' to open the sentence after 'I have dwelt with him' means that this sentence explains the previous one: I have dwelt with him because I crossed the mountains. Therefore, she had to cross the mountains to reach him. He was not in Beleriand with Galadriel.

As noted, Christopher Tolkien appears to say the same thing in Unfinished Tales (regarding this passage), when he commented on Celeborn's 'Nandorin phase'. Another very early draft idea might have been Noldorin, according to CJRT in HME.

But as also noted in the thread, by the time of the Appendices, and more notably, as published in the First Edition, Celeborn became Sindarin.

But Tolkien never revised this passage: did it slip his notice, or did JRRT think it vague enough to stand? even if Celeborn had gone from Nando to Sinda.

Is there any other possible interpretation of this, especially given that Tolkien would go on to (again, in 1967, in The Road Goes Ever on) publish that Celeborn was Sindarin?

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Snöwdog
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Celeborn & Galadriel's parting has to be one of the top classic marriage separations of all time in Middle Earth.
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Hamfast Gamgee
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Well, was it really for immortal Elves? If, as Tolkien suggests, one lives for 10000 centuries a seperation of 200 years or so is not so long, just the Elven equivalent of someone going to the pub with the lads for a few drinks and his wife going to the bingo for a while with her friends!
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Roll of Honor Varnafindë
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Well, when they parted, they didn't know whether it would be for only a couple of centuries or for much longer.
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Hamfast Gamgee
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True, though I would have thought that Celebrian did have plans to follow her at some time. He just wanted a last look around Middle-Earth first I suppose. Or possibly he did have one or two matters to take care of.
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Roll of Honor Varnafindë
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Yes, I also believe that Celeborn didn't mean to stay in Middle-earth, away from his wife, forever.
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The White Hand
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quote:
True, though I would have thought that Celebrian did have plans to follow her at some time.
Celebrian? You're thinking of their daughter, who had crossed long prior.

[ 02-11-2011, 07:13 PM: Message edited by: The White Hand ]

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Mithrennaith
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I think it was a slip of the keyboard ...
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Galin
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quote:
True, though I would have thought that Celebrian did have plans to follow her at some time. He just wanted a last look around Middle-Earth first I suppose. Or possibly he did have one or two matters to take care of.
It seems just a minor slip for Celeborn to me too.

[ 02-12-2011, 03:56 PM: Message edited by: Galin ]

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The White Hand
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Celeborn had to remain and lead the remaining Elves. Galadriel and Elrond had lost their power of the Rings, so Celeborn would be the strongest leader among the High Elves to remain while the last Elves left.
However it seems that Celeborn did leave, at least Lorien, by the time of Aragorn's demise, since Lorien was abandoned when Arwen returned there to die.

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Galin
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I've looked into the question of why Celeborn stayed in Middle-earth when Galadriel departed (due to the whole Telporno of Aman consideration that JRRT seems to have entertained in 1968 or later). That Celeborn loved Middle-earth and was not yet weary of his land seem to be noted by JRRT at least, up to 1963 anyway, based on...

quote:
'They are not so troubled about time. And so I think Celeborn is still happy among his trees, in an Elvish way. His time hasn't come, and he isn't tired of his land yet. When he is tired he can go.'

Sam speaking, The Epilogue (not used of course), JRRT

And a (previously unpublished) letter...

quote:
'(...) These comments imply that Celeborn could have left Middle-earth with Galadriel if he had wished, and Tolkien's replies to queries from readers seem to confirm this. In his unpublished letter to Eileen Elgar, begun 22 September 1963 he comments that Celeborn and Galadriel were of different kin: Celeborn was of that branch of the Elves that, in the First Age, was so in love with Middle-earth that they had refused the call of the Valar to go to Valinor; he had never seen the Blessed Realm. Now he remained until he had seen the coming of the Dominion of Men. But to an immortal Elf, for whom time was not as it is to mortals, the period in which he was parted from Galadriel would seem brief.' Hammond And Scull, Reader's Companion
But yet for the second edition of The Lord of the Rings (thus after 1963) Tolkien would add that after the passing of Galadriel 'in a few years' Celeborn grew weary of his realm and went to Imladris (and in Lorien there lingered only a few of its former people)... and might have passed Oversea by the time of Aragorn's death, considering one possible implication of Arwen's statement to Aragorn before he died -- her where 'none now walk' in reference to the gardens of Elrond.

Perhaps one can assume Galadriel's departure, and the waning of the Three had more of an effect upon Celeborn that even he would have guessed -- though that said, Nenya could only have been employed in the Third Age, and the couple did not take up permanent rule in Lorien (at least) until the passing of Amroth.

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Hamfast Gamgee
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To make the point more general, did all of the population of Lorien find their way to Valinor and what about the Elves of Mirkwood? Or did they just fade and possibly get to Valinor the hard way, via death?
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The White Hand
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quote:
Perhaps one can assume Galadriel's departure, and the waning of the Three had more of an effect upon Celeborn that even he would have guessed -- though that said, Nenya could only have been employed in the Third Age, and the couple did not take up permanent rule in Lorien (at least) until the passing of Amroth.
I don't think that the Three immediately lost their power with the desruction of The One; as Elrond said at the Council, they would gradually lose their power. This was supported by the fact that, as Treebeard said, the inrush of Orcs following the Fall of Barad-Dur, still could not get into Lorien "thanks to the power that dwells there" (i.e. Nenya).
Likewise, Galadriel was able to destroy Dol Goldur after she went North from Isengard, using Nenya as well.
Finally, the company travelled to the Havens unseen, exept for perhaps a "swift shimmer;" this also indicates the Rings had some slight power remaining, though they couldn't hide entire cities anymore.

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Roll of Honor pi
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If the power of the Three waned gradually, does it not follow that the Nine also would?
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Galin
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quote:
TWH wrote: I don't think that the Three immediately lost their power with the desruction of The One; as Elrond said at the Council, they would gradually lose their power.(...) this also indicates the Rings had some slight power remaining, though they couldn't hide entire cities anymore.
Not sure why you chose to quote part of my post for this 'response'.

I hadn't said that the Three 'immediately lost their power' in any case -- when I posted about the waning of the Three and Celeborn.

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The White Hand
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Pi:
quote:
f the power of the Three waned gradually, does it not follow that the Nine also would?
This is a good question, since the Nazgul perished immediately with the destruction of the One Ring.
However, the Nine Rings were not held by the Nazgul, but by Sauron; and so they would have been destroyed in the collapse of Barad-dur-- along with the Ithil-stone, which is said was destroyed as well.

The lesser Rings weren't near-indestructible like the One Ring; and if the fall of Barad-Dur was forceful enough to destroy the Ithil-stone, which was near-indestructiable; therefore the fall would have definitely destroyed the Nine Rings as well-- and with them, the Nazgul who had long become wraiths to them.

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Halbarad
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quote:
The White Hand : I don't think that the Three immediately lost their power with the desruction of The One; as Elrond said at the Council, they would gradually lose their power.
Elrond didn't say that they would "gradually" lose their power. Here is the passage in question:

quote:
"'But what then would happen, if the Ruling Ring were destroyed as you counsel?' asked Glóin.

'We know not for certain,' answered Elrond sadly. `Some hope that the Three Rings, which Sauron has never touched, would then become free, and their rulers might heal the hurts of the world that he has wrought. But maybe when the One has gone, the Three will fail, and many fair things will fade and be forgotten. That is my belief.'"

So the long-term *effects* that these rings had made on their environments would fade as the rings stopped (failed) generating them and Nature resumed its course, as Galadriel said to Frodo:

quote:
"Yet if you succeed, then our power is diminished, and Lothlórien will fade, and the tides of Time will sweep it away. We must depart into the West, or dwindle to a rustic folk of dell and cave, slowly to forget and to be forgotten."
And so the supernatural abilities of the rings (supernatural because they superseded the effects of Nature, time and decay) recalled somewhat of the timeless bliss of Valinor. Doubtlessly, this is what the Gwaith-I-Mirdain Noldo exiles longed for, and thus their intent in making such rings in the first place.

quote:
TWH: This was supported by the fact that, as Treebeard said, the inrush of Orcs following the Fall of Barad-Dur, still could not get into Lorien "thanks to the power that dwells there" (i.e. Nenya).
Likewise, Galadriel was able to destroy Dol Goldur after she went North from Isengard, using Nenya as well.

When was Galadriel in Isengard? August, well after the June wedding of Elessar. Dol Guldur was destroyed back in March.

No, Nenya did not create forcefields or throw down walls as Galadriel did at the Dol. This is more likely "magic" (if you will) learned from Melian, and Galadriel was under her tutelage for awhile in Doriath as well as other Maiar and Valar when she grew up in Valinor. Doriath had an enchanted "Girdle" about it wrought by Melian's arts, and her daughter, Luthien "threw down gates and opened walls" of Minas Tirith on Sauron's Isle.

As Elrond explained, The Three Rings:

quote:
"were not made as weapons of war or conquest: that is not their power. Those who made them did not desire strength or domination or hoarded wealth, but understanding, making, and healing, to preserve all things unstained."
So not offense, not defense, peacetime activities only. Treebeard credited Galadriel AND Celeborn for repelling orc attacks agains their forest. Of course! They are the leaders of an army of Galadhrim!
quote:
TWH: Finally, the company travelled to the Havens unseen, exept for perhaps a "swift shimmer;" this also indicates the Rings had some slight power remaining, though they couldn't hide entire cities anymore.
This isn't stated nor even implied as being an effect of these Rings unless I've missed something. The Elves had accomplished much before the advent of the Rings, and could still do amazing things without them. If Elves wished to pass unseen through the Shire, then they could do so as Gildor's company explained to Frodo:

quote:
"...the hobbits could see the starlight glimmering on their hair and in their eyes. They bore no lights, yet as they walked a shimmer, like the light of the moon above the rim of the hills before it rises, seemed to fall about their feet. ‘We know many things,’ they said. ‘We have seen you often before with Bilbo, though you may not have seen us.’"
So here's an example of "shimmering" and confessed invisibility without rings being involved -though no where is it said that Elrond and Galadriel passed through the Shire unseen.

Since The Three were in truth linked to the power of The One, then they "failed" as soon as The One was unmade. They weren't running on batteries that slowly ran out of juice! :-)

[ 03-05-2011, 07:02 AM: Message edited by: Halbarad ]

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Galin
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quote:
Halbarad wrote: So the long-term *effects* that these rings had made on their environments would fade as the rings stopped (failed) generating them and Nature resumed its course, as Galadriel said to Frodo:
And that's actually what I had in mind in my post above -- above I should have said the waning realm of Celeborn in any case, as the context was a reaction to Tolkien's addition (later edition) that after the passing of Galadriel 'in a few years' Celeborn grew weary 'of his realm' and went to Imladris -- thus the possible impact on Celeborn with respect to the waning effects of the Three (in that his realm could no longer be preserved from change and decay), along with his parting from Galadriel.

Not that you said otherwise of course, but just to clarify.

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Halbarad
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Right, and that's a good hypothesis, Galin. I'm not sure why any elf would want to live in Southern Mirkwood as "East Lorien" anyway. Even if a working ring of power could have been brought to bear upon it, it seems like it would be a bit of a mess, a real fixer-upper like Mordor or the Morgulvale! ;-) And how could it ever compare to fair Lothlorien and its Mallorn forest?

But Celeborn and the elves also abandoned Rivendell relatively quickly (as you pointed out) because Vilya was no longer there to provide that special feeling, and (IMO) whatever influence the presence of a few lingering Calaquendi may have had --if there were any left besides Galadriel at the close of the Third Age. Gildor and Glorfindel may have been that old...

[ 03-05-2011, 07:50 PM: Message edited by: Halbarad ]

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The White Hand
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You're just pulling refutations out of thin air, so there's no need to counter them; however the fact is that the Three Rings were never visible, until they travelled to the Havens.

Obviously the Three had the power to remain invisible long after the One Ring was destroyed... so it stands that their other powers would remain as well, to some extent.

(But of course, that will just mean that they must have pulled them off and carried them in their pockets....right? []

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