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Minas Tirith Forums » Library Council of Minas Tirith » Where was Celeborn when Galadriel went to the Grey Havens? (Page 1)
Author Topic: Where was Celeborn when Galadriel went to the Grey Havens?
Ar Pharazon the Golden
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When Galadriel, Elrond, Gandalf, Bilbo and Frodo leave for the Undying Lands at the end of the book, where was Celeborn? Was he Galadriel's husband? If so, you'd think he'd have gone with her. If not, what was his relationship to Galadriel?
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Roll of Honor Thorin
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Yes, Celeborn was Galadriel's husband. I believe it wasn't rare for elven husbands and wives to spend extended time periods apart. There's a thread somewhere about this, but I have no idea where it is.

They were married, but they were very different people. Galadriel was a Noldor, while Celeborn was a Sindar. They acted quite differently towards the Fellowship in Lorien, and they contradicted each other regarding meeting Treebeard again after Isengard. Celeborn was well aware that Galadriel would leave while he remained:
quote:
But Celeborn said: 'Kinsman [Aragorn], farewell! May your doom be other than mine, and your treasure remain with you to the end!'
Many Partings, LOTR

Celeborn may have remained in Lorien while Galadriel departed, but he left sometime before the death of Arwen in 1541 S.R., some 122 years after the fall of Sauron. Arwen found Lorien deserted by that time.
quote:
It is said that Celeborn went to dwell there [Rivendell] after the departure of Galadriel; but there is no record of the day when at last he sought the Grey Havens, and with him went the last living memory of the Elder Days in Middle-earth.
Note on the Shire Records, LOTR
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Dark Lord Andúril
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But it seems from his quote to Aragorn that he was loath of part with Galadriel. Why, therefore, did he do this? Was he under any outside obligation to do it?
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Serafina
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Perhaps it was Galadriel's choice rather than his. She was a Ring Keeper, and with the defeat of Sauron and the coming of the Age of Men her work in Middle-earth was really completed, so it was right for her to leave. Though I don't understand why Celeborn couldn't leave at teh same time. Did he have a task to perform that kept him in Rivendell?
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Earendilyon
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Maybe he was not ready yet to forsake Middle Earth. Remember that once an Elf went to Valinor, they never returned! (Except for the rare case of Glorfindel dieing in Gondolin and after spending some time in Mnados and Valinor being send back.)
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Beleg
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APTG posts

quote:
When Galadriel, Elrond, Gandalf, Bilbo and Frodo leave for the Undying Lands at the end of the book, where was Celeborn? Was he Galadriel's husband? If so, you'd think he'd have gone with her. If not, what was his relationship to Galadriel?

He was Galadriel's husband.

Perhaps this Quote sheds some light,

quote:
First version of the Epilogue, HOME 9
'Well, it would be so if they all was to sail,’ said Sam. ‘But I am told they aren’t sailing any more. The Ring has left the Havens, and those that made up their mind to stay when Master Elrond left are staying. And so there’ll be Elves still for many and many a day.’
‘Still I think it was very sad when Master Elrond left Rivendell and the Lady left Lórien,’ said Elanor. ‘What happened to Celeborn? Is he very sad?’
‘I expect so, dear. Elves are sad; and that’s what makes them so beautiful, and why we can’t see much of them. He lives in his own land as he always has done,’ said Sam. ‘Lórien is his land, and he loves trees.’
‘No one else in the world hasn’t got a Mallorn like we have, have they?’ said Merry. ‘Only us and Lord Keleborn.
‘So I believe,’ said Sam. Secretly it was one of the greatest prides of his life. ‘Well, Keleborn lives among the Trees, and he is happy in his Elvish way, I don’t doubt. They can afford to wait, Elves can. His time is not come yet. The Lady came to his land and now she is gone; and he has the land still. When he tires of it he can leave it.


And further still in the 'Second Version,

quote:
Elanor was silent for some time before she spoke again. ‘I did not understand at first what Celeborn meant when he said goodbye to the King,’ she said. ‘But I think I do now. He knew that Lady Arwen would stay, but that Galadriel would leave him. I think it was very sad for him. And for you, dear Sam-dad.’ Her hand felt for his, and his brown hand clasped her slender fingers. ‘For your treasure went too. I am glad Frodo of the Ring saw me, but I wish I could remember seeing him.’

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The Laurenendôrian
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Appendix B of LR has:
quote:
In the North also there had been war and evil. The realm of Thranduil was invaded, and there was long battle under the trees and great ruin of fire; but in the end Thranduil had the victory. And on the day of the New Year of the Elves, Celeborn and Thranduil met in the midst of the forest; and they renamed Mirkwood Eryn Lasgalen, The Wood of Greenleaves. Thranduil took all the northern region as far as the mountains that rise in the forest for his realm; and Celeborn took all the southern wood beyond the Narrows, and named it East Lórien; all the wide forest between was given to the Beornings and the Woodmen. But after the passing of Galadriel in a few years Celeborn grew weary of his realm and went to Imladris to dwell with the sons of Elrond. In the Greenwood the Silvan elves remained untroubled, but in Lórien there lingered sadly only a few of its former people, and there was no longer light or song in Caras Galadhon.
One of the saddest passages in the book, in a way.
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Arnkell
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Cool that they did a clean-sweep in Mirkwood. Get some fresh air and light in there. []
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Roll of Honor Varnafindë
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So what happened to the other Lorien elves? Did they join Celeborn to go to Rivendell, or did they leave for the West? Does it say whether many of them joined Galadriel when she left?
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Elrond
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No, Galadriel went strictly with Gandalf, Bilbo, Frodo, Elrond and Cirdan, no other elves.

If you ask me, Celeborn was being selfish. He may have felt jealousy toward his life and stayed in middle earth until he became "bored" before joining his love in the Undying Lands. He should have been completely faithful to her.

Which also reminds me, in the movie, Celborn DOES go with Galdriel, the hobbits, Elrond, Gandalf, and Cirdan.

That irritated me...

Your thoughts Please...

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Carnisil Iskandar
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I do think Celeborn stays at Imladris with the sons of Elrond. But is not mentioned whether Celeborn does depart to Valinor. After the pass of the ringbearers, Celeborn has no more task. I think he sailed with Cirdan on the final ship to the west.
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Erinti
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It is mentioned that Celeborn eventually leaves for Valinor, although it's not where one would expect to find it. The last sentence of the Prologue of the LOTR:
quote:
It is said that Celeborn went to dwell there after the departure of Galadriel; but there is no record of the day when at last he sought the Grey Havens, and with him went the last living memory of the Elder Days in Middle-earth.

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Roll of Honor EowynatHeart
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I think, Galadriel was a Noldor, one that is not allowed back in Valinor. The only reason why she was allowed to go was because she pasted the test of the Ring. She had already seen Valinor and I am sure desired greatly to go back. I'm sure it greived her to part with Celeborn, they had been together for a very long time.

Celeborn, must have had something else to do or I do think he would have left with her. I don't think it was out of selfishness to leave Middle Earth. Middle Earth I don't think held anything special for him. Elves did love ME but he wouldn't have forsaken Galadriel just to stay.

[ 02-17-2004, 11:23 AM: Message edited by: EowynatHeart ]

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Elrond
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If you ask me, Celeborn was being selfish. He may have felt jealousy toward his life

O meant wife not life. []

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Roll of Honor Thorin
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Many of the Dark Elves stayed in Middle-earth for quite a while, regardless of the repeated summons by the Valar. Even those that "died" and lost their material body sometimes refused the call of Mandos. I think Legolas was quite unusual: he seemed fairly eager to go to the West.
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Elrond
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I didnt think he was to eager, he did have that colony in Ithillien after he loved the sea before he left.

i thin if LEgolas was excited to go, it was because he wanted to spend eternity with Gimli, his best friend.

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Roll of Honor Ecthelion of the Fountain
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Spend eternity? nah, Gimli died in his due time.

Ok, a difficult twist; we know Tolkien had many different stories for Celeborn, he wa s a Noldor, a Silvan, a duck etc. Does anyone know which back-story for Celeborn Tolkien had when he wrote Lord of the Rings? If Tolkien had him be an Elf of Doraith then there would be more reason for him to stay.

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Eitheladar
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The key to 'who was Celeborn at the time of the writing of LotR' lies, I think, in these words of Galadriel (emphases are mine) :
quote:
For the Lord of the Galadhrim is accounted the wisest of the Elves of Middle-earth, and a giver of gifts beyond the power of kings. He has dwelt in the West since the days of dawn, and I have dwelt with him years uncounted; for ere the fall of Nargothrond or Gondolin I passed over the mountains, and together through ages of the world we have fought the long defeat.
Note the varying use by Galadriel of I, he, we. We can assume, therefore, that when Galadriel says I she does not include Celeborn, for otherwise she says we.

From this we can deduce the following:
  • Celeborn dwelt in the West before Galadriel did - hence, he did not come with her from Aman. He is not a Noldo.
  • Galadriel passed over the mountains (clearly the Ered Luin) alone. Her use of 'For' to open the sentence after 'I have dwelt with him' means that this sentence explains the previous one: I have dwelt with him because I crossed the mountains. Therefore, she had to cross the mountains to reach him. He was not in Beleriand with Galadriel.
  • Finally, the phrase 'wisest of the Elves of Middle-earth' might serve as yet another indication that Celeborn is not of the Calaquendi.
I must run now, either I'll edit and add later or others will continue this chain of reasoning. []
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Thingol of Doriath
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quote:
Boromir of Gondor- No, Galadriel went strictly with Gandalf, Bilbo, Frodo, Elrond and Cirdan, no other elves.

This is not true...

quote:
There was Gildor and many fair Elven folk; - The Grey Havens
quote:
With them went many Elves of the High Kindred who would no longer stay in Middle-earth; -The Grey Havens
As for the origins of Celeborn... Christopher Tolkien admits that there are problems:

quote:
There is no part of the history of Middle-earth more full of problems than the story of Galadriel and Celeborn, and it must be admitted that there are severe inconsistencies 'embedded in traditions'.
Tolkien changes their history several times... including Celeborn's origin. At one time he is described as a Sinda living in Doriath, kin of Thingol... and Galadriel met him there. A later version has him a Teleri Elf in Alqualondë, kin to Olwë... he built a ship to leave Aman with Galadriel and came under the Doom of Mandos subsequently.

[ 02-18-2004, 04:38 AM: Message edited by: Singollo of Doriath ]

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Elrond
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Oh, I always thought it was only the 6...

Oh Well!!!

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The ever young
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I always thought that Celeborn loved Middle-Earth and Lothlorien and he wanted to help heal it after the war of the ring, as well as make sur his grandchildren where alright. Or maybe he wanted to give Galadriel some time alone with her parents and brothers.

I belive if Celeborn was selfish he would make his wife stay in Middle earth till he ws ready to go.

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Galadhir
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quote:
If you ask me, Celeborn was being selfish. He may have felt jealousy toward his wife and stayed in middle earth until he became "bored" before joining his love in the Undying Lands. He should have been completely faithful to her.

Jealousy? After spending 7,000 years in Middle-earth with her? Theirs was the longest-lasting elven marriage in Middle-earth, as far as we're aware, and I think he'd had plenty of time to get used to the fact that she got all the glory.

The fact that he, almost immediately, retired from public life and went to live with the last remaining members of his family indicates to me that he's not the kind of elf who particularly cares about status or glory. He had the Kingship of Lorien, and he didn't particularly want it - he gave it away. So what has he got to be jealous about?

It's far more likely that as a Sindar of Doriath he is still deeply tied to Middle-earth. As Galadriel herself says 'The love of the elves for their land...is deeper than the deeps of the sea, and their regret is undying and cannot ever be assuaged.'

She was going *home* to Aman. He - whose home was Middle-earth - would have been going into permanent Exile, exile until the end of the world. He was clearly still unwearied of the world, and could not bear to leave.

With that 'may your doom be other than mine' line it seems clear to me that he feels he has no choice. This is his doom, his fate - unavoidable, but not to be wished on anyone else.

She has to leave, he can't bring himself to follow, and he is very unhappy about it. I don't think he should be accused of unfaithfulness or jealousy, when the situation is obviously making him miserable.

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Orofacion of the Vanyar
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quote:
'It's far more likely that as a Sindar of Doriath he is still deeply tied to Middle-earth. As Galadriel herself says 'The love of the elves for their land...is deeper than the deeps of the sea, and their regret is undying and cannot ever be assuaged.'
Are you sure he's Sindarin? [] Tolkien's last conception of Celeborn was that he was Telerin.

quote:
A wholly different story, adumbrated but never told, of Galadriel's conduct at the time of the rebellion of the Noldor appears in a very late and partly illegible note: the last writing of my father's on the subject of Galadriel and Celeborn, and probably the last on Middle-earth and Valinor, set down in the last month of his life...Pondering what she might do Gala-driel's thoughts turned to the ships of the Teleri, and she went for a while to dwell with her mother's kindred in Alqualondë. There she met Celeborn, who is here again a Telerin prince, the grandson of Olwë of Alqualondë and thus her close kinsman.
~ Unfinished Tales The History of Galadriel and Celeborn

So Celeborn would be going home as well. If you think about it, they were both immortal, so it's not like they would never see each other. Celeborn probably just wanted a little more time in Middle-earth.

As far as why Galadriel hadn't left Middle-earth yet...

quote:
The Exiles were allowed to return – save for a few chief actors in the rebellion, of whom at the time of The Lord of the Rings only Galadriel remained. At the time of her Lament in Lórien she believed this to be perennial, as long as the Earth endured. Hence she concludes her lament with a wish or prayer that Frodo may as a special grace be granted a purgatorial (but not penal) sojourn in Eressëa, the solitary isle in sight of Aman, though for her the way is closed. Her prayer was granted – but also her personal ban was lifted, in reward for her services against Sauron, and above all for her rejection of the temptation to take the Ring when offered to her. So at the end we see her taking ship.
~ Unfinished Tales The History of Galadriel and Celeborn

She might not have had a choice in staying. This would coincide with the "regret" from your quote.

[ 07-27-2004, 09:27 PM: Message edited by: Orofacion of the Vanyar ]

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Roll of Honor Herendil
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The fact that Celeborn stays behind is something that I am not sure that works so well with the conception that he also is from Valinor. It would work better if he were a Sinda or Nando and thus logically would not be as much of a 'guest' in Middle-earth as Galadriel, would he? I wonder if Tolkien thought about this.

[ 07-28-2004, 02:42 AM: Message edited by: Herendil ]

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Roll of Honor Eryndil
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quote:
Does anyone know which back-story for Celeborn Tolkien had when he wrote Lord of the Rings?
As Singy and Orofacion point out, Tolkien's conception of Celeborn changed, but at the time he wrote LotR, he seems certain:
quote:
In Lindon south of the Lune dwelt for a time Celeborn, kinsman of Thingol ~~The Lord of the Rings, Appendix B, The Second Age

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