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Minas Tirith Forums » Library Council of Minas Tirith » Who were considered Dark Elves? (Page 1)
Author Topic: Who were considered Dark Elves?
Roll of Honor Lillianna
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I want to write a piece of lotr fan fiction for fun(quadruple aliteration. wow.) with some lead characters as dark elves, but I don't know alot about them. The only one I think we really know about is Eol. Where did they live exactly?(I have forgotten) Were they only in the first age? They were dark because they never saw the light of the stars am I correct? Is there really not that much about them? These are questions I am anxious to have answered.
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Eldorian
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Well Liliana you've really stumped me but I'm not defeated give me time and I might be able to answer your question.
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Aina Moja
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I could be mistaken but weren't the Dark Elves the ones who were the ancestors of Orcs? Or not...

I don't think that they were only the ones who didn't see the light of the two Trees...But here's some info from The Encyclopedia of Arda that proves me wrong

Calaquendi entry:
quote:
'Elves of the Light'; a name given to the Vanyar, the Noldor and that part of the Teleri who travelled to Aman in the youth of the world and saw the light of the Two Trees of Valinor; Elu Thingol of Doriath is also counted among their number.
Moriquendi entry:
quote:
Called the Dark Elves, those of the Elves who never saw the light of the Two Trees of Valinor, including the Avari, the Nandor and the Sindar. The Sindarin king Elu Thingol, however, was not accounted among the Moriquendi, as he had travelled to Valinor before returning to Middle-earth.

quote:
The Dark Elves are often equated with the Avari, who refused the summons of the Valar and remained in the darkness of Middle-earth. This is not strictly correct; 'Dark Elves' also include those such as the Nandor and Sindar who started the Great Journey to Valinor, but never came there.
quote:
When Melian set her Girdle around the land of Doriath, Thingol's kinsman Eöl left that land, and dwelt instead in the forest of Nan Elmoth. Living under the dark shadows of that ancient forest, and preferring the night to the day, he came to be widely known as the Dark Elf.

Eöl's epithet was no doubt influenced by the fact that the Sindarin Elves to whom he belonged were of the Moriquendi, the Dark Elves who had never seen the light of the Two Trees of Valinor.


Hope that helps, Lilli!

[ 06-07-2002, 01:18 PM: Message edited by: Ainaundomiel ]

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Eldorian
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Well done. Ainadomiel where did you get the encyclopedia of Arda from?
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Aina Moja
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You haven't found it? Man have you missed out! Well here it is: Encyclopedia of Arda
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Cellscells
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I've only ever seen the Dark Elves mentioned in the Silmarillion, but there are Dark Elves, called Drow, more prominent in the Forgotten Realms fantasy books.

They are evil and live underground.

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Halion
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Here are all the instances of the phrase Dark Elves I could find in The Silmarillion:

quote:
Yet it is told that ere long they [Men] met Dark Elves in many places, and were befriended by them; and Men became the companions and disciples in their childhood of these ancient folk, wanderers of the Elven-race who never set out upon the paths to Valinor, and knew of the Valar only as a rumour and a distant name.
quote:
and those [Elves] who had dwelt in Valinor and looked upon the Powers as much surpassed the Dark Elves in these things as they in turn surpassed the people of mortal race. Only to the realm of Doriath, whose queen Melian was of the kindred of Valar, did the Sindar come near to match the Calaquendi of the Blessed Realm.
quote:
But south of the Andram, between Sirion and Gelion, was a wild land of tangled forest in which no folk went, save here and there a few Dark Elves wandering; Taur-im-Duinath it was named, the Forest between the Rivers.
quote:
Then he [Finrod Felagund] went among the sleeping people, and sat beside their dying fire where none kept watch; and he took up a rude harp which Balan had laid aside, and he played music upon it such as the ears of Men had not heard; for they had as yet no teachers in the art, save only the Dark Elves in the wild lands.
quote:
It is said also that these Men had long had dealings with the Dark Elves east of the mountains, and from them had learned much of their speech;

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Eldorian
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Thanks ainadomiel.
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Roll of Honor Lillianna
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Ainaundomiel and Maerbenn thank you so much for doing the research for me!! I am extremely grateful and I will be referring back to this thread often. []
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Aina Moja
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No prob, Lilli, Mirithan! Glad to be of service!

-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
They miss the whisper that runs any day in your mind,
“Who are you really, wanderer?”—
and the answer you have to give no matter how dark
and cold the world around you is: “Maybe I'm a king.”
William Stafford

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Elladan
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Dark elves were the ones who never saw the light of the two tree's.

Many dark elves still remained in Middle-earth during the third age, the elves of Mirkwood being some of them.

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Eldorian
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The elves of Mirkwood were not dark elves they were wood elves so your theory is completly wrong. I know a wrong theory when I see one.
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Eol the Dark Elf
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Elves confuse me a bit ( [] ), but if Mirkwood Elves were Silvan, then using the strict definition of Moriquendi, they were dark Elves, since they had not seen the light of The Trees.
Nandorin Elves fell away from the Great Journey, these then became the Silvan and the Laiquendi, I think.

.....

Silvan means "wood(land?)" or similar, but they were Dark Elves (Moriquendi) nonetheless, as well as being called Wood Elves.

[edit]Hmmm The Encylopedia of Arda's Elven division tree, has the Silvan Elves as a sub-set of the Teleri only, while the index of the Silm. has:
quote:
They appear to have been in origin those Nandorin Elves who never passed west of the Misty Mountains, but remained in the Vale of Anduin and in Greenwood the Great
Which leans towards the Silvan being a sub-set of the Nandor.

Ah okay, the Encyclopedia also has:
quote:
Telerin Elves who turned aside from the Great Journey east of the Misty Mountains, and journeyed down the River Anduin. Some few later came into Beleriand and dwelt in Ossiriand, while those that remained founded realms of their own. The people of Lórien were of this kind, as were the Wood-elves of Mirkwood.
Which seems to agree with the Silm.

.....

A whole thread about me? I feel special [] []

[ 06-09-2002, 01:56 PM: Message edited by: Eöl the Dark Elf ]

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Elladan
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Firstly Mirithan, me saying the Mirkwood elves were dark elves isnt a theory of mine, its fact.
quote:
so your theory is completly wrong
Actually im completly right. You obviously dont know a wrong theory when you see one, even though its not theory.

Secondly, you think just because they have the title of wood-elves that they are automatically ruled out as being dark elves?? They are Moriquendi, which is dark elves.

Eöl has quotes in his post to back me up, so i need not post any myself.

[ 06-10-2002, 01:46 AM: Message edited by: Elladan ]

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Roll of Honor Lugbúrz
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This question borders on being questionable enough to be permitted in the Library. Furthermore we seem to be engaging in some personal rhetoric which is quite unnecessary.

It is always a good idea to start a thread in one of the 5 literary discussions and if it grows to become a worthy thread, then ask for it to be moved here.

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Roll of Honor Lillianna
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Lugburz,
That was my mistake and I am sorry. I realized after that I had posted this(stupidly enough) that this was a place for threads that are submitted here and started in the literary forums. I guess I chose here because I thought there wasn't really that much about them and so wouldn't be brought up in the literary forums. My apologies. My questions have been answered so should I delete this or not?

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Orofacion of the Vanyar
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WGW will move it if he deems it inappropriate Library material.

Lilliana, basically any elf that didn't see the light of the trees is a Dark Elf, plain and simple. That means Nandor, Silvan, and any other elf that never made it to Aman is a dark elf. Elladan is not wrong Mirithan.

[ 06-10-2002, 04:27 PM: Message edited by: Orofacion of the Vanyar ]

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Eol the Dark Elf
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Oro meant Mirithan , methinks.
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Orofacion of the Vanyar
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*Oro blushes from embarasment.*

Sorry, too many "M" names!

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Cellscells
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huh? I don't play Dungeons and Dragons... I just read the books...
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Eldorian
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Herhmm It states quite clearly in the Hobbit that the Elves of Mirkwood were Woodelves.
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Roll of Honor Thorin
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Mirithan, read the earlier posts. Better yet, grab your Silm and look at the diagram of the different branches of the elves.
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Roll of Honor Lillianna
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Wow I didn't realize that silvan and sindarin elves were all considered "dark elves"!! I always supposed they were sort of beguiling and mysterious and lived in dark forests. (probably because of Eol.)

so why is Eol called "the dark elf" when he basically is a silvan elf that went away from Doriath? Is it because he was a bit evil?

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Orofacion of the Vanyar
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For that reason and also he was clad in black. Hence, "...the Dark Elf." []
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Halion
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Well, I think it was mostly because of the place where he lived:
quote:
In that wood in ages past Melian walked in the twilight of Middle-earth when the trees were young, and enchantment lay upon it still. But now the trees of Nan Elmoth were the tallest and darkest in all Beleriand, and there the sun never came; and there Eöl dwelt, who was named the Dark Elf.

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