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Minas Tirith Forums » Library Council of Minas Tirith » Why did the Towers of the Teeth fall down when the Ring was destroyed? (Page 1)
Author Topic: Why did the Towers of the Teeth fall down when the Ring was destroyed?
Roll of Honor Thorongil
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Why did the Towers of the Teeth fall down when the Ring was destroyed?

They were built, not by Sauron, but by the men of Gondor, so how could they be founded on the Ring?

[Note: This message has been edited by White Gold Wielder]


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Estel
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When the ring when fell, Mt Doom erupted. When Mt Mickinly erupted in Califoria, the pressure levled trees that were twenty miles away. Maybe that is why it fell. Or it could have been because it was built in Moridor. When the Ring fell Souron was destroyed, and with him all of his relm. The Towers of Teeth were in his relm thus they fell.
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Gil-galad999
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They fell because of Sauron's influence in them. Sauron put alot of his power into the ring, that would make the Ring attached to anything he created/corrupted or controlled. IE: the forces of Sauron at the Battle of Morannon-- "The Power that drove them on and filled them with hate and fury was wavering, its will was removed from them; and now looking in the eyes of their enemies they saw a deadly light and were afraid." Once the Ring was destroyed everything Sauron had controlled failed, including the Towers of Teeth and the Black Gate.

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Aurë entuluva!


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Dingalen
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So why were the orcs, that were controlled (and bred) by Sauron not destroyed?
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Roll of Honor Thorongil
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But I didn't think Minas Morgul fell, did it? Don't have the book with me, so I could be wrong.
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Dingalen
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Difficult to say. After all, King Elessar had it ground to dust in the beginning of his reign to disperse the evil upon it.

And I don't think the witchking did maintain it too well beyond its defensive measures. (Didn't get that impression from the glimpses Frodo & Sam of it whenn they passed the Morgul Vale.)

And who knows? The dunedain might have built the towers themselves - but I don't think Sauron would have let this pass to his realm unguarded during his first reign - so maybe the dunedain built on foundations laid by Sauron's minions. And even the teeth would need some maintenance & rebuilding - so Sauron's touch might be in such works to strengthen this fortress.

And of course the eruption of the orodruin - enough reasons, why the teeth should topple - in addition to the dramatic value of the scene of course.

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As silent as greenwood the great.

This message has been edited by Dingalen on 08-28-2001 at


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Ringthane
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Here's from The Two Towers: "In days long past they were built by the Men of Gondor...after the overthrow of Sauron." However, Gondor waned, "and for long years the towers stood empty...Then Sauron returned. Now the watch-towers...were repaired"

1. If the blast from the eruption of Mount Doom was enough to topple the Towers of the Teeth, then Frodo and Sam would've been toast!

2. You are right in saying the Towers of the Teeth were built originally by Gondor, but their late-Third-Age condition was largely the fruit of Sauron's endeavors. And with the destruction of the ring (and Sauron's reduction) the works Sauron raised up fell, too. I believe many things Sauron had renewed probably fell once the support of his power was removed.

3. And as to your point about the Orcs not falling into dust once Sauron was reduced: Sauron didn't originally create the Orcs (see the separate Library topic on that). And although they responded to his power, Sauron probably didn't have a hand in their breeding, either. Orcs bred plenty throughout the Third Age, and pretty much without Sauron's help.


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Illuvatar
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Hmmm, that makes you wonder what kind of catastrophy would go down if the valar were to somehow destroy melkor. Since he had a part in making trolls, orcs, and dragons, and he made and changed much of the world, would all of those things perish in his demise? Or perhaps the only way to destroy melkor would be by destroying middle earth itself, because so much of his power is vested in it. hmmm.

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I am.


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Mithrandir
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I think it is more in the same way Lorien faded when the elven ring was unmade...whatever was made with the use of the one ring then that would be unmade, not neccesarily the destroying of the wielder, just the power behind it.
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Estel
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I think I saw somewhere that someone was climbing of sking on Mt Mickinly when It erupted and they lived to tell about it. How ever, I'm siding with the second half of my post.
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Dingalen
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Hypothesis:
Melkor created things - invested of his own might in them. So these creations remained after his passing, because they were not part of him anymore.
Sauron only created the ring - investing of his might to make the ring. The ring's purpose is to bind (see the poem) - to bind TO the dark lord. To gather and to maintain influence and might. All power invested subsequently is under the ring's spell. Bound and maintained by the presence of the ring in Arda. A network.

(This is actually an improvement in comparison to Morgoth's 'method', as the creator does not weaken himself as much by the investment: The investment remains under the investor's control, instead of gaining a life of its own with time. As Sauron should be inherently weaker than Melkor, he has less to squander.)

Subsequently, the destruction of the ring would release all these bonds - resulting in the destruction of the bonded objects or their exposure to the normal processes of time (like Lorien).

What d'ya think?

This message has been edited by Dingalen on 09-12-2001 at


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Dolmed
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It could have been something as mundane as an earthquake.
Consider the paragraph in 'The Field of Cormallen'.

quote:
The earth groaned and quaked. The Towers of the Teeth swayed, tottered, and fell down; the mighty rampart crumbled; the Black Gate was hurled into ruin......


-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
Cyprinus in ripa per totum diem.
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
I'm about as useful as a mute switch on a smoke alarm.
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
I'm a Misogynistic Mushroom according to Athene.

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The Tenth Nazgul
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quote:
But I didn't think Minas Morgul fell, did it?
No it didn't, because I remember Aragorn saying that he would destroy the city and that nobody would dwell in it again, or something to that effect.

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Nine he gave to Mortal Men, proud and great, and so ensnared them. Long ago they fell under the dominion of the One, and they became Ringwraiths, shadows under his great Shadow, his most terrible servants. And one innocent bystander bought an exact replica of one of the rings on E-BAY, and he became the Tenth Nazgul. He then took over the Dark Diocese to honor his nine "colleagues."

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The Witch-King of Angmar
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quote:
Hypothesis:
Melkor created things - invested of his own might in them. So these creations remained after his passing, because they were not part of him anymore.

Melkor didn't create any creatures; he could only breed them and twist them this way, not create real creatures of his own-- only Eru could do that.
Barad-dur fell because its foundations were said to have been constructed with the power of the Ring, and so they remained undestroyed by Isildur; however when the Ring was destroyed, Sauron's power was also destroyed; and therefore everything that he maintained via his power, likewise passed.
Mordor was re-built relatively quickly, so it's likely that Sauron was using his power to aid in the re-building, as usual investing his power outside of himself in order to rule others-- and thereby divesting himself of his power in the process, which was the moral Tolkien mentioned in Letters #211 about powerful despots who place their power in their rule over others, and hence risk losing it.

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Prince Imrahil
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As far as I'm concerned, earthquakes tend to knock buildings down.

-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
And last and proudest, Imrahil, Prince of Dol Amroth, kinsman of the lord, with gilded banners bearing his token of the Ship and the Silver Swan, and a company of knights in full harness riding grey horses...tall as lords, grey-eyed, dark-haired, singing as they came.

-Minas Tirith

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Ulairë Gordis
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Interesting question.
Indeed, the foundations of Barad-Dur were made with the power of the Ruling Ring. So, when the One was dstroyed, Barad Dur fell. The Teeth were built by Gondoreans- Sauron reconstructed them and built the Morannon. But at that time he had no Ring. So, it is really strange that the Morannon and the Teeth were destroyed with the One.

Unless - a wild guess - what if Sauron used the 9 Rings and the 3 Dwarven Rings he held to build Morannonn and to reconstruct the Teeth? Then, when the One was destroyed, the 9 and 7 lost their power and everything made by their power perished.

In the same way Lorien withered when the Power of Nenya had gone.Only it was a slow process. But perhaps the 7 and the 9 were more connected with the One than the Three?

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The Witch-King of Angmar
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They were made and contained with the power of the Ring-- which was spread all throughout Mordor; thus Sam knew that if he used the Ring in Modor, he's be spotted immediately.... and so Frodo was spotted the instant that he wore the Ring at Mt. Doom.

The Morannon wasn't a gate, it was a rampart-- i.e. a wall built between the Towers of the Teeth; it was said to be so strong, that they couldn't hope to breach it even if they brought many great seige-engines, and Modor had only enough forces to man it.

Meanwhile the earth-tremors weren't really enough to do any damage.

As for the Nazgûl, Gandalf stated at Rivendell that they "stand or fall by Sauron;" hence when Sauron perished, so did they.

As for the Three, there's some indication that they still had some power-- they aren't visible until the journey to the havens, thus indicating that they still had power for some time.

The Three were never touched by Sauron, and so they still had some power of their own-- but because the secret of the Rings of Power was known only to Sauron, NO ring could be made which was not dependent on the One; it was apparently beyond the Elves' ability to understand how to make a Ring that wasn't so controlled.

In the Foreword of LotR, Tolkien states that if the story was more allegorical, then Sauron was captured rather than destroyed, and Saruman would have found the secret of Ring-making in the lore of Barad-dûr, and made his own Ring of Power which wasn't subject to the One.

[ 05-29-2006, 04:19 PM: Message edited by: The Witch-King of Angmar ]

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Ulairë Gordis
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I know that Morannon was a rampart, not a gate. And Barad-Dur was a mighty fortress built all anew using only old foundations left from the Second Age. Morannon was built and Barad-Dur rebuilt after TA 2942, when Sauron returned to Mordor.
But I can't believe that Sauron could physically draw the Power from the One Ring while he was not in possession of it. And why couldn't he use the three of the Seven and the Nine Rings in his building projects? He had those Rings in his physical possession. Surely, they had other powers in them than to make Men invisible and Dwarves greedy. []

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The Witch-King of Angmar
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Sauron could certainly draw power from the Ring:

From Letters #131:

quote:
Sauron became thus almost supreme in Middle-earth. The Elves held out in secret places (not yet revealed). The last Elf-Kingdom of Gilgalad is maintained precariously on the extreme west-shores, where are the havens of the Ships. Elrond the Half-elven, son of Earendil, maintains a kind of enchanted sanctuary at Imladris (in English Rivendell) on the extreme eastern margin of the western lands. But Sauron dominates all the multiplying hordes of Men that have had no contact with the Elves and so indirectly with the true and Unfallen Valar and gods. He rules a growing empire from the great dark tower of Barad-dûr in Mordor, near to the Mountain of Fire, wielding the One Ring.
But to achieve this he had been obliged to let a great part of his own inherent power (a frequent and very significant motive in myth and fairy-story) pass into the One Ring. While he wore it, his power on earth was actually enhanced. But even if he did not wear it, that power existed and was in 'rapport' with himself: he was not 'diminished'.

He probably used the three of the Seven, for whatever they were worth; he wanted them back, and did not give them out again, for presumably that reason; but I would think that the Nine, were used to control the Nazgûl-- who were far more useful. I don't think he could use the power of the Nine rings for anything else, while also controlling the Nazgûl with them.

However this brings up a good point: when the Witch-king died, Sauron still had his ring; I'm surprised that he didn't use it to make the Mouth of Sauron into the Tenth Nazgûl; however he didn't have time, since Gondor began marching the day after.

[ 05-31-2006, 12:38 PM: Message edited by: The Witch-King of Angmar ]

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Ulairë Gordis
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quote:
I don't think he could use the power of the Nine rings for anything else, while also controlling the Nazgûl with them.
I don't think so, but neither of us has any proof.

quote:
However this brings up a good point: when the Witch-king died, Sauron still had his ring; I'm surprised that he didn't use it to make the Mouth of Sauron into the Tenth Nazgûl; however he didn't have time, since Gondor began marching the day after.
Yes, he had the WK's ring. But before the One was destroyed, and the Nine Rings lost their power, Witch-King's spirit still remained in ME, it seems. Probably Sauron yet hoped to restore him somehow? Find him another body maybe...

As for the Mouth, he was promised Isengard to rule. It is clear that he was not promised the Ring. I can't speak for Sauron, [] but I would have never given the Mouth a ring! What for? He was already serving Sauron faithfully. The Rings were no rewards for the faithful servants, they were means to ensnare those who would have never served Sauron othervise. If Sauron gained the Ruling Ring, he could have tried to slip one of the Nine to Aragorn, for example, or to Faramir, or Eomer...

But Sauron had to have the One before he would be able to bestow the WK's ring. Otherwise, the man would become a wraith, but NOT under Sauron's control, IMHO.

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Roll of Honor Eryndil
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quote:
Barad-dur fell because its foundations were said to have been constructed with the power of the Ring
Indeed, and by no less a person than Elrond. Yet in Tale of Years for the second age it says:
...
c. 1000 Sauron, alarmed by the growing power of the Númenoreans, chooses Mordor as a land to make into a stronghold. He begins the building of Barad-dûr.
...
c. 1600 Sauron forges the One Ring in Orodruin. He completes the Barad-dûr. Celebrimbor percieves the designs of Sauron.


Was Elrond mistaken? []

E. ubb code

[ 06-02-2006, 06:30 AM: Message edited by: Eryndil ]

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Ulairë Gordis
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I think, the already existing foundations were strengthened with the Power of the One in 1600.
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Captain of Gondor
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I believe it says something like that in the books.
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Dark Phoenix
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Every thing that was tied to sauron had a bind to him, the tower for one, was directly linked to him by his eye being there, for example:the two points on the top of the tower(the bat ears as i call them)where sending off a connection with his eye which in turn sent his power through the tower and the tower was part of mordor(by being on the land) as was the black gate,so when saurons ring was destroyed his power(which was running through mordor)was ended and thus so was every thing connected to him.

[ 06-14-2006, 06:41 PM: Message edited by: edward ]

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Prince Imrahil
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quote:
the tower for one, was directly linked to him by his eye being there
My understanding is that Barad-Dur fell because its foundations were tied to Sauron vis-a-vis the Ring, therefore, when the Ring was destroyed, the foundations crumbled, thereby rending the Dark Tower itself. The Eye was not the direct link between Sauron and the tower, the foundation of the tower, made with the power of the Ring, was the direct link (make sure you're not getting confused between the movie and the book).

This is why the tower didn't fall when Sauron was disembodied at the end of the Second Age, for though he was temporarily "vanquished" and his spirit fled into the East (not to return for hundreds or thousands of years), the foundations of Barad-Dur remained intact (though the tower was torn down by the forces of the West).

-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
And last and proudest, Imrahil, Prince of Dol Amroth, kinsman of the lord, with gilded banners bearing his token of the Ship and the Silver Swan, and a company of knights in full harness riding grey horses...tall as lords, grey-eyed, dark-haired, singing as they came.

-Minas Tirith

From: Dor-En-Ernil, Belfalas (by way of VA) | Registered: May 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Create a New Topic  Reply to this Topic Minas Tirith Forums » Library Council of Minas Tirith » Why did the Towers of the Teeth fall down when the Ring was destroyed? (Page 1)
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