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Minas Tirith Forums » Library Council of Minas Tirith » What was Saruman's ring? (Page 3)
Author Topic: What was Saruman's ring?
Roll of Honor Thorongil
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Couldn't Sauron place the thought in Saruman's head through the Palantír, and make him think it was his own idea?
From: San Antonio, TX | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Dingalen
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There is some detail about what could be done with the Palantiri from LoTR and UT, but I don't think it's enough to answer that question with surity. They were far seeing devices able to scry into the future, the past and far away countries - but whether they could be used to control another person's thoughts, there is little information. It allowed Sauron telepathic communication as Pippin found out - but I don't think Sauron would have been able to put down as complex suggestions as that into Saruman's or Denethor's mind without them realizing it.

Because then he could have made Denethor surrender - and could have established a far firmer control on Saruman, e.g. forbidding him to try to acquire the ring for himself. As Saruman intended as the episode with his Uruks in Rohan showed.

Anyhow. Saruman's ambition was to unravel the secrets of the rings of power from the beginning - so trying to forge his own ring was just one step further.

------------------
As silent as greenwood the great.

This message has been edited by Dingalen on 08-23-2001 at


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Isengrim The Ninth
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Could Saruman`s Ring have been one of the Seven? Sauron had three of them, and the rest were assumed to be consumed by Dragons. Is it not conceivable that Saruman, wielding great power, braved the Witch-King`s wastelands and found one of these rings in the Grey Mountains, the Dragon`s old stomping grounds? For it was said that they inspired greed, but ultimately no dominion over others. Maybe Saruman used his soft voice and magic to gain control of others, while all the time the Ring he owned imparted terrible, tempting visions of power over all things, urging him on with falsehoods and glamours, leading to his downfall. Whatchoo think?
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Lúthien Tinúvial
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mabey he used it to aid him in commanding all his troups/orc/men/etc...??

-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
Eärendil was a mariner that tarried in Arvernien;
he built a boat of timber felled in Nimberethil to journey in;
her sails he wove of silver fair, of silver were her lantrens made,
her prow was fashioned like a swan, and light upon her banners laid.....

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Luin Eriol
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If it weren't for the "Ringmaker" statement, one could argue that Sauron may have, knowing of Saurman's dark desires, gives him a ring that was one of the essays in the craft of the Rings of Eregion before the art was fullblown.

quote:
"There Sauron took the Nine Rings and the lesser works of the Mirdain; but the Seven and the Three he could not find." -Unfinished Tales
"...and the lesser works of the Mirdain..."

This puts Sauron in possession of more than the Nine and three of the Seven. But the quote "For I am Saruman, the Wise, Saruman the Ring-maker, Saruman of Many Colours" perturbs the entire idea of Sauron giving him a lesser ring. Maybe Saruman, in his egomaniacal style, even began to refuse the fact that Sauron had baught him, and descided to say that he himself had made the ring he wore. Maybe after repeating this to himself time after time he even began to belive it himself.

Or he may have simply been too full of pride to acknowledge the source of his ring.

Or possibly (after his many wanderings) he happened upon artifacts in the craft of ringmaking left from the Mírdain. I believe that, somewhere (HoME or UT), this is mentioned, possibly in accordance to a "secret chamber" was found in Orthanc, where they also found a jewel that Aragorn began to wear after he took the throne (I believe it was an heirloom of some sort). If anyone can shine some light on this I would be quite greatful, this half-forgotten passage has begun to gnaw away at my mind of late.

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Madomir
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Luin Eriol. check Gandalf's post on page 1 of this thread, 4-23-01 6:42p.. it sheds some light on this
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Roll of Honor Giladain
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There is another interpretation of Saruman's claim of "Ringmaker." It seems plausible that he could have made a ring of lesser power, since the lore of the ring was his domain for so long. (Excellent points have been made about his Maia status to Aulë, and coupled with his long study would surely have given him the knowledge to create a ring of power.) But as we see, his other statements at the time are nothing but boasts, and actually empty boasts at that. He never had the ability to grant himself a new status of color (Many-coloured) nor new authority or power.

Taken in the context that Saruman called himself "Saruman of Many Colours," the self-proclaimed title "Saruman Ringmaker" also rings hollow. I believe that his claim was much like Gollum's insistence that the One Ring was a "present." Saruman was trying to show off to Gandalf, which gave his pronouncements to Gandalf the type of arrogance that comes from a lack of honesty. Saruman was either too proud to acknowledge that he found (or was given) a Ring, or his mind was already so poisoned with greed for the One Ring and his dealings with the Enemy
that he made boastful and false claims to Gandalf in an attempt to intimidate his sometime friend.

Pax

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The Laurenendôrian
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Fingolfin - if you take a slightly different quote from HoMe 7, it says that Saruman had obtained the "last of the nineteen", which means that certainly when it was first brought in, Saruman had one of the Great Rings.

So either:
  • The concept of him having a Great Ring was retained, which begs the question 'which'? The only possibility seems to be one of the Dwarf Rings - perhaps Sauron even gave it to him? I'd like to look more thoroughly into the history of the rings as it stood at the relevant point in HoMe 7 - if I find anything interesting, I'll post it here.
  • The concept was changed to Saruman having a lesser ring after the idea of lesser rings was invented. This seems plausible.
  • The concept was changed to Saruman having made the ring. The line about "Saruman the Ring-maker" doesn't appear in the original text.

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Roll of Honor Thorin
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Personally, I doubt if the idea of Saruman having a "Great Ring" was retained. It just causes too many problems. Could you post that quote, Laur? I don't remember it.
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The Laurenendôrian
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quote:
Radagast the Grey [in pencil > Brown] is of course a master of shapes and changes of hue, and has much lore of beast, bird and herb; but Saruman has long studied the works of the enemy to defeat him, and the lore of rings was his especial knowledge. The last of the 19 rings he had....[28]
And Note 28 reads:
quote:
I cannot make out the two concluding words, though the first might be 'gathered'. But whatever the words are, the meaning is clearly that Saruman had acquired the last of the Rings - and wore it on his finger, as appears subsequently in this text (cf. FR p. 271). - In the last text of 'Ancient History' that has been given Gandalf refers to the discussion of the Rings at the White Council, and to those who 'go in for such things'; see p. 22.
I agree that it seems rather implausible that the idea of Saruman having a Great Ring was retained (though perhaps in this lay the origin of the idea that Gandalf could have a Great Ring?), but it seems to me fairly clear that it was the original conception, and what is to argue is what Tolkien could most plausibly have had in mind in retaining the passage. My guess is that since the words "Ring-maker" were introduced, it is likely that this is given as a new explanation of why Saruman had a ring (as a new explanation was certainly needed). Then again, they could simply be an elaboration of Saruman's jealous and untrustworthy character. Perhaps even when adding the lines in Tolkien did know certainly himself whence Saruman's ring came.
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The Dread Pirate Roberts
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How about the possibility of both statements being true? He had the last of the 19 AND he made it himself.

Perhaps in his study of ring-lore he acquired the knowledge enough to create a version of "the last of the 19" rings for himself, but not enough knowledge to make any of the others. For both statements to be accurate, Saruman's ring would have to be an exact replica of Ring 19 and not merely a cheap knockoff with half the power.

If you think of these as watches rather than rings the idea is easier to accept.

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The Witch-King of Angmar
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quote:
A strong place and wonderful was Isengard, and long it had been beautiful; and there great lords had dwelt, the wardens of Gondor upon the West, and wise men that watched the stars. But Saruman had slowly shaped it to his shifting purposes, and made it better, as he thought, being deceived- for all those arts and subtle devices, for which he forsook his former wisdom, and which fondly he imagined were his own, came but from Mordor; so that what he made was naught, only a little copy, a child's model or a slave's flattery, of that vast fortress, armoury, prison, furnace of great power, Barad-dûr, the Dark Tower, which suffered no rival, and laughed at flattery, biding its time, secure in its pride and its immeasurable strength.
It seems the same would be said of Saruman's ring, since Sauron taught Saruman nothing of the secrets of Ring-making-- it would not be advantageous to him while the One Ring was missing, for Saruman to have a working Ring of Power. Rather, the ring was just a "flattery" as mentioned above. All those secrets were contained in Barad-Dûr, according to Tolkien.
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Eonwe The Herald
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I realise that this topic has been dead for about 3 years, but I've been reading through it with much interested.

Don't suppose it would be possible to "bump" it back in to discussion would it?

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White Gold Wielder
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Any time you want discussion, just make a post with a viewpoint and debate usually follows. What questions about this topic do you feel are unresolved?
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