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Minas Tirith Forums » Library Council of Minas Tirith » What was Saruman's ring? (Page 2)
Author Topic: What was Saruman's ring?
Roll of Honor Fingolfin of the Noldor
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Probably the latter since now tolkien's intensions are claer.
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Dingalen
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Just too easy an explanation - self delusion.
Saruman was a schemer of machiavellian skills - stalling the white council for centuries to complete his knowledge of the rings and their making and search for the ruling ring. Not very convincing, that he would been taken by self-delusion on that scale.
I think from the development of events, it is clear that Saruman had found documents pertaining to the ruling ring in the vaults of Minas Tirith and acquired access to Orthanc for the specific purpose to build his own power.

Maybe he was deluded by Sauron through the palantir to believe he could create his own ring of power, but as Nimruzir cites, referring to Prof. Tolkien's own analysis of the situation:

quote:

He states that Saruman would have found the 'missing links' in his research in the ruins of Barad-dur and THEN constructed a Great Ring.

So obviously Saruman would have been capable of the ringmaking.

As to the advantages of constructing a ring, which requires passing some of your own power into it:

The rings of power were known to amplify their wielders own powers.

The ruling ring was able to find and control the other rings.

The rings conserved power against time - Galadriel told Frodo, that with the destruction of her ring (vilya) as a result of the destruction of the ruling ring, the magic preserving Lothlorien would fail.

Also the ruling ring allowed Sauron to manifest again relatively fast after the destruction of his physical form in the fall of numenor.

All good reasons for Saruman to sacrifice (or store) some of his power by forging a great ring.


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As silent as greenwood the great.

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Roll of Honor Nenya
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First, Galadriel's ring was Nenya, and Elrond guarded Vilya.

But, I agree with that Saruman made his ring. Why should he say so otherwise? Maybe he had found out much enough to do a ring of power or he just believed he could do it, I don't have an opinion on that.

Maybe Tolkien thought of changing that part, but I don't think he actually did it. (Maybe it is a "Galadriel and Celeborn"-thing)

This message has been edited by Nenya on 05-20-2001 at


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Roll of Honor Fingolfin of the Noldor
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How do you explain this quote then:


quote:

But whatever the words are, the meaning is clearly that Saruman had aquiared the
last of the rings--and wore it on his finger as appears subsequently in this text.(cf.
Fellowship of the Ring p. 271)

It is pretty clear sarumen aquired the ring on his finger(the reference to the FoTR portion where his ring was spoken of shows this passage is concerned with that ring on his finger) rather then made it.


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Roll of Honor Nenya
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Well, I don't actually know.

But I don't think your explanation about Saruman calling him self a ringmaker is good enough either. And there is the foreword of the fellowship....


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Dingalen
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Thanks for the correction, Nenya. I was thinking, that Galadriel had the ring of air - as in fact that was Elrond.

Still, from the previous cites, it is clear that Saruman was bent on creating his own master ring - or acquiring it, if that would be easier. And that he was capable of doing it. (s.a.)

As for the bauble he was wearing on his hand - it would only be interesting where it came from, i.e. whether it was one of the lesser rings or something else.

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As silent as greenwood the great.


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Roll of Honor Fingolfin of the Noldor
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quote:
But to achieve this he had been obliged to let a great part of his own inherent power (a frequent and very significant motive in myth and fairy-story) pass into the One Ring. While he wore While he wore it, his power on earth was actually enhanced. But even if he did not wear it, that power existed and was in 'rapport' with himself: he was not 'diminished'. Unless some other seized it and became possessed of it. (letter 131)

perhaps sarumen dd the same

quote:
The Dark Lord is no longer on his throne, but his monsters are not wholly destroyed, and his dreadful servants, slaves of the Ring, endure as shadows among the shadows. (letter 131

this seems to infer that sauron controlled his minions through the use of his ring perhaps sarumen in buildin up armies of a similer sort tried to do that as well through his own construction of a ring or the perversion (which I guess some could sinder construct in the form of add on) or a ring of the elven smiths

This message has been edited by Fingolfin of the Noldor on 07-05-2001 at


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Dingalen
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I think, the metaphor "slaves of the ring" refers only through the Nazgul. That Sauron controlled/commanded his troups (or at least their commanders) by magical means, is indicated in the description of the battle at the Morannon - expecially after the ring was destroyed & Sauron banished.

The link to the nine via the rings was special and should not be mixed up with the control Sauron had had over the army at the Morannon (which he maybe only employed, because a) the closeness to Mordor & his seat of power and b) the witchking - the head commander of his armies - had been vanquished).

The power is invested in the ring to link it to the physical plane, Arda, Middle Earth, Ardor - and to enhance his own power thereby - I venture, that it did not give powers to Sauron, that he did not previously have (except for the link to the other rings). And the same would apply to Saruman as a ringmaker.

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Roll of Honor Fingolfin of the Noldor
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quote:
The power is invested in the ring to link it to the physical plane, Arda, Middle Earth, Ardor - and to enhance his own power thereby - I venture, that it did not give powers to Sauron, that he did not previously have (except for the link to the other rings)

his link to Arda was his physical manifestation not the ring, the quote is clear by making a ring and putting the greater portion of his might into it he basically enhanced his power and by putting it in an innanimate basically indestructable object he not only increased his might but assured his varitable impeviousness to any form of weaponry past the destruction of said ring.


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Anarion(Lestat)
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I'm a newbie but I don't know what foTR or hoME is? What is it??

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Estel
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Anarion:

Those are just abreviations for the books. FotR is The Fellowship of the Ring. HoME is History of Middle Earth. TRoK is The Return of the King etc... .


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Dingalen
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Fingolfin - if you read the quote you made of my immediately preceding post - I said that it linked the part of the power invested in the ring to the plane of Arda - i.e. in the material form of the ring.

As Sauron was a maia, his physical manifestation would most likely manifest only part of his actual power.

Thanks for agreeing with me!


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Roll of Honor Fingolfin of the Noldor
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Oh ok sorry. my bad
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Dingalen
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Don't worry. Back to the board:

Supposing: It was a lesser ring of power, which would enhance Saruman's power - why did it not help him, after he fled from Isengard? It is possible, that the nazgul (sent to check on him) could have taken it. Which again would contadict the idea, that it was of Saruman's own making - because then it would be linked to him and of less use to others.

What became of this ring after Saruman's fall?


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Tuor
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If it was a ring of power, wouldn't it be an anchor for Saruman's return...
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Roll of Honor Fingolfin of the Noldor
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I would if he put some enough of his power into it but if he simply took its natural benefits then once he had no power there woud have ben nothing to enhance
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Roll of Honor Fingolfin of the Noldor
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I suppose if Sarumen put some of his power inot it. Did he?

Why did you delete your post Tuor, this could've started a new disscussion

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The One
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Perhaps (and this is just a vague notion) being that Saruman was in league with Sauron (for the time being), and supposedly high in his favour, he was given one of the Seven, of which Sauron had a few. Is there anything anywhere to suggest or disprove this theory?

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Cernunnos
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Just the fact that Saruman refers to himself as 'Ring-maker', tho' yr theory is intriguing.

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Whereas the light perceives the very heart of the darkness, its own secret has not been discovered.


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Mithrandir
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Well, i would attribute that to his pride and self-exultation. Sure he made ring's, but he wasn't a ledgend at it i doubt.
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Roll of Honor Fingolfin of the Noldor
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quote:
But whatever the words are, the meaning is clearly that Saruman had aquiared thelast of the rings--and wore it on his finger as appears subsequently in this text.(cf. Fellowship of the Ring p. 271)(The treason of Isengard)

quote:
In Eregion long ago many Elven-rings were made, magic rings as you call them, and they were, of course, of various kinds: some more potent and some less. The lesser rings were only essays in the craft before it was full-grown, and to the Elven-smiths they were but trifles - yet to my mind dangerous for mortals. But the Great Rings, the Rings of Power, they were perilous(fotr)

quote:
There Sauron took the Nine Rings and the lesser works of the Mirdain; but the Seven and the Three he could not find(UT)

Perhaps Sauron gave him one of the lesser rings rather


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Maglor
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Sauron recovered 3 or 4 of the dwarf rings. I doubt whether he gave one to Saruman because he proberly wouldn't except a dwarf ring.
Going off topic a little bit but where the rings made for their users. Like the 7 dwarf rings were made espicially for dwarves and the nine made for men. Or where they all the same, apart from the one ring and the Elf Rings.

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Dingalen
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I doubt Saruman would be so foolish to accept a ring from Sauron - nor that Sauron would give a lesser ring to Saruman to entice him. More likely that Saruman found it himself.

From the poem it seems likely that the 7 and the 9 were specifically crafted for dwarves & humans. After all Celebrimbor heard the verse from the Dark Lord, when he bound them to the master ring. So the purpose of the Dark Lord is obvious. For what purpose the elves would craft rings for men and dwarves, I find no reference in the works I read so far.


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Gil-galad999
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ok .. this is just an idea but im pretty convinced that Saruman's ring was a "trifle" ring of Celebrimbor's Noldor, but Saruman did declare himself a "ring-maker"... perhaps noticing Saruman's interventions in the affairs of the Ring, Sauron by this turn of events (since he could not assault Saruman by force) decided to stall Saruman like Saruman stalled the White Council... he gave him something else to focus on... Making a Ring.. Saruman was learned enough and vain enough to attempt it... Saruman was influenced enough by Sauron to take such an idea to heart.. giving Sauron the time and power he needed to find the Ringbearer/Ring... thinking himself a "ring-maker" he would definetly try to show this off since he was showing off his "colors" to Gandalf at the time........

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Dingalen
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Plausible plot. But I doubt that Sauron could place such an idea in Saruman's head. But assuming it already being here, Sauron might have found ways to foster it carefully. Because it would further alienate Saruman from the white council. (They would sense his ulterior motives, if he had been found forging his own ring of power.)
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