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Minas Tirith Forums » Library Council of Minas Tirith » What happened to the Entwives? (Page 1)
Author Topic: What happened to the Entwives?
Roland
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What happened to the Entwives?

Does Tolkien give more info on the Entwives in his books other than LOTR?
I've always been curious about the Entwives after Treebeard spoke of them. He also asked that Merry and Pippen keep an eye out for the Entwives when they return to the Shire. He mentioned that the Shire they speak of might be a place the Entwives would like. My question to all of you is: what happened to them?? I have a clue (maybe more). In the FOTR ,in the second chapter, Sam is in the Greendragon discussing rumours of the Shire. He asks this: "But what about these Tree-men, these giants as you might call them? They do say that one bigger than a tree was seen up away beyond the North Moors not long back." After Samwise is questioned of his the validity of the statement, he says "But this one was as big as an elm tree, and walking-walking seven yards to a stride, if it was in inch." Then a hobbit says it was only an elm tree that was seen but Sam refutes it by saying: "But this one was walking, I tell you; and there ain't no elm tree on the North Moors." Now I think that this is reasonable evidence that the Entwives actually did migrate towards the Shire. I haven't studied deeply into other books of Tolkien and was hoping if any of you have more info on the matter. Anyway, I've been dwelling on this for a while and I find it very interesting. I'd really appreciate your replies.


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Mithrandir
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a long pondered question...that i dont have much a clue on...i dont THINK there is any other info, though i would love to see some.
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Miturian
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What about the letters?
Someone MUST have asked the question before us.

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Nimruzir
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RE: What about the letters?

I have hightlighted a portion of the following to illustrate a point after the quotes.

Letter # 144
'I think that in fact the Entwives had disappeared for good, being destroyed with their gardens in the War of the Last Alliance (Second Age 3429-3441) when Sauron pursued a scorched earth policy and burned their lands against advance of the Allies down the Anduin (vol. II p. 79 refers to it). They survived only in the 'agriculture' transmitted to Men (and Hobbits). Some, of course, may have fled east, or even become enslaved: tyrants even in such tales must have an economic and agriculturial background to their soldiers and metalworkers. IF any survived so, they would indeed be estranged from the Ents, and any rapproachment would be difficult - unless experience of industralized and militarized agriculture had made them a little more ararchic. I hope so. I don't know.'

Letter # 338
'As for the Entwives: I do not know. I have written nothing beyond the first few years of the Fourth Age... But I think in Vol. II pp. 80-81 it is plain that there would be for the Ents no re-union in 'history' - but Ents and their wives being rational creatures would find some 'earthly paradise' until the end of this world: beyond which the wisdom neither of Elves or Ents could see. Though maybe they shared the hope of Aragorn that they were 'not bound for ever to the circles of the world and beyond them is more than memory.'

I hypothesized once somewhere that the elm-tree like thing that is seen in the Noth farthing was an enslaved Entwife agent of Sauron unobtrusively gaining information on the Shire before the Nazgul appeared years later. The Nazgul obtained information from some source or sources, and this seemed a likely option. (Hypothesis based upon segment from Letter # 144).

The supposition is that Sauron would send in agents first to scout out the area, without alerting the Elves or others who would take notice.


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Snoogins455
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Wouldn't Elves, especially Elves I think, notice a entwive walking around or just standing unobtrusively off to the side? I honestly havent found anything else although ill keep looking.
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Roland
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You know, I think that the Nazgul and Sauron got their information about the Shire from Gollum when he was captured in Mordor. So I think Gollum was the source of information regarding the whereabouts of the Shire. And Sauron was also in contact with Saruman who started eyeing the Shire because of his suspiscions. So basically, I doubt (and I hope) that Entwives enslaved or not, were spying for Sauron's dark purposes. However I still believe as before that Entwives or Ents must've been in the area, especially after hearing Sam's description.
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Estel
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I believe that the entwives went far into the east beyond mordor. Gandalf said to treeberd that they could seek ino the east that had long been closed to them. I think the entwives are with the blue wizards in the far east
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Galdor of the Tree
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first estel noone knows where the blue wizards are. they could be dead they could be doing nothing for more about them check UT's Isatari.
second i think i read an excerp in one of JRRT's letters that said he did not think the entwives were still alive

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Mithrandir
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the Blue Wizards were in the far east...Alatar and Pallando, Wizards near the ocean. They weren't directly involved in the War of the Ring, for that wasn't there quest, so its highly possible they stayed in during the 4th age.
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The Laurenendôrian
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We seem to be deviating from the point in hand here, which is the entwives. If people want to discuss the blue wizards, why doesn't someone start a new topic.
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Mithrandir
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sorry, i was just correcting someone. but i think tolkien used the famous vagueness technique here. and most likely they wandered on, and, not being as strong or as many as Ents, became "treeish" with no one to wake them
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Patchwerk
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I find it interesting to note that the Entwives crossed the Anduin, and that gollum originally came from that area. Gandalf described gollum's people as being like Hobbits, so maybe they were ancestors. And where did they get this great farming and gardening knowledge from? The Entwives that TreeBeard thought would have loved the Shire. I would at first agree that the Entwives could have been wiped out during the Last Alliance, but I think Elrond would have known something more about them if their fall was some how connected to the Last Alliance.
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Miturian
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Ents being ancestors of Hobbits?
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Patchwerk
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No. Sorry I wasn't more clear. Gollum's folk may have been related to Hobbits, and may have been taught gardening and farming secrets by the entwives.
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Mithrandir
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Conclusion:
The Ent-Wives have dissapeared from the face of Middle Earth, some being destroyed, some falling asleep, some being destroyed by Sauron, never to be seen again

This message has been edited by Mithrandir on 03-29-2001 at


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Roland
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What makes you think they were enslaved by Sauron?
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Mithrandir
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i didnt mean to put enslaved. jus destroyed.
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Nimruzir
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Enslaved is a possibility (not for all of course, but for SOME). Ruling out the option entirely is a mistake IMO, since even the good Professor doesn't know for sure.

Letter # 144
'They survived only in the 'agriculture' transmitted to Men (and Hobbits). Some, of course, may have fled east, or even become enslaved.'


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Mithrandir
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i thought i saw that quote somewhere =) ill update my conclusions soon.
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Roll of Honor Fingolfin of the Noldor
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Letter 180:


quote:

I have long ceased to *invent* ... : I wait till I seem to know what really happened. Or till it writes itself. Thus, though I knew for years that Frodo would run into a tree-adventure somewhere far down the Great River, I have no recollection of inventing Ents. I came at last to the point, and wrote the 'Treebeard' chapter without any recollection of any previous thought: just as it now is. And then I saw that, of course, it had not happened to Frodo at all.

Letter 144:

quote:

What happened to them is not resolved in this book. ... I think that in fact the Entwives had disappeared for good, being destroyed with their gardens in the War of the Last Alliance (Second Age 3429-3441) when Sauron pursued a scorched earth policy and burned their land against the advance of the Allies down the Anduin. They survived only in the 'agriculture' transmitted to Men (and Hobbits). Some, of course, may have fled east, or even have become enslaved: tyrants even in such tales must have an economic and agricultural background to their soldiers and metal-workers. If any survived so, they would indeed be far estranged from the Ents, and any rapprochement would be difficult -- unless experience of industrialized and militarized agriculture had made them a little more anarchic. I hope so. I don't know.


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Iarwain
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Here's another idea. We know that Morgoroth was roumered to have created orcs from captured elves and i'm sure that he did thesame with ents regarding trolls. So perhaps this is what happened to the entwives, they were captured by Sauron and turned into trolls. Oh well its an idea!
They are probably really all in the old forest under the care of tom bombadil!

------------------
Hey dol merry dol


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Netlord
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Hey! And if Entwives simply found some Entlovers and forgot the idea to return to their husbands?
This is also an idea!!

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Maglor
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Maybe they were mixed with the orcs and trolls to make the Olog Hai.
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Roll of Honor Nenya
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I thought that Melkor "created" the trolls, not Sauron.
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Maglor
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He made them in mockery of the Ents.
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