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Minas Tirith Forums » Library Council of Minas Tirith » Did the Nazgul wear their rings? (Page 1)
Author Topic: Did the Nazgul wear their rings?
Aerendir
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Did the Nazgúl wear their rings?

Well, I've got a few things to say about it, but what do you people have on this?


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Nimruzir
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The good Professor has this to say:

They\Their\Them = The Ringwraiths
Him\His = Frodo at Weathertop
He = Sauron

Letter # 246 exerpt from Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien

I do not think [i]they could have attacked him with violence, nor laid hold upon him or taken him captive; they would have obeyed or feigned to obey any minor commands of his that did not interfere with their errand - laid upon them by Sauron, who still through their Nine Rings (Which he held) had primary control of their wills.'[/i]

This message has been edited by Nimruzir on 03-02-2001 at


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Mithrandir
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right. had they had there rings maybe they could have escaped from his power, for they were called to his service by the One Ring, right? and since Sauron no longer had it, if they could take there 9 rings back...
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Miturian
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But he could also just hold them(the rings) in his mind. Held, can also just mean control.
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Roll of Honor Fingolfin of the Noldor
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Sauron controled the wraiths because he had possession of their rings which he wouldn't need to to do if he had the one ring. I believe there is a reference to that somewhere in Ut sil or lotr I'm not sure
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Mithrandir
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exactly as Fingolf states, i think it may be in FoTR, while Aragorn of Galdalf is answering a hobbit (merry or pippin i think) on questions about them
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Roll of Honor Marcho Blackwood - MSS
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Here's some evidence that the Nazgûl have their rings:

quote:
`Some, Galdor,' said Gandalf, `would think the tidings of Glóin, and the pursuit of Frodo, proof enough that the halfling's trove is a thing of great worth to the Enemy. Yet it is a ring. What then? The Nine the Nazgûl keep. The Seven are taken or destroyed.' At this Glóin stirred, but did not speak. `The Three we know of. What then is this one that he desires so much?


FotR - Chapter 2. The Council of Elrond

Seems to me that's pretty specific.

------------------
Marcho Blackwood
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The Shire

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Mithrandir
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wrong! the Nazgul DO NOT have there rings. i know that. they were firstly servants to the one ring, then there own. When Sauron had the one ring, maybe he let them keep them, but without the One, he couldn't control them unless he had there 9.
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Maedhros The One Handed
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Why can you say that you are right Full stop without providing any proof??
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Galdor of the Tree
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but how does gandalf know if they wear them? did he have a nice chat with one? also if they were wraiths how could they hold anything includung a ring? you can't call that proof its word twisting. i think what it was supposed to mean was that the 9 are for the nazgul and are kept safe. and you ALL know it! and read the first post by nimruzir its pointless to go on after that

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Mithrandir
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why can i say i know? look at the good prof's letters, that says it right there, and even if Tolkien didnt say Sauron held them, then the logic points directly to the answer
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Roll of Honor Marcho Blackwood - MSS
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My, my! Temper, Temper!

Wrong? No, the quote and my statement are exactly correct as provided. There is nothing wrong with the quote. The evidence is exactly that, evidence. It is not definitive, it is something to be included in making a determination.

Nimruzir provides the definitive quote, (Thank you for including the letter #, Nimruzir! It made it easy to read in context!) at least if I was on the jury. But all evidence must be placed before them.

------------------
Marcho Blackwood
#16 Brookshade Close
Bindbale, North Farthing
The Shire


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Roll of Honor Fingolfin of the Noldor
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The answer is yes and no. From the folloing passage it seems that Sauron at one time held the ring of the Nazgul in order to assure their allegence to him but after he was totally convience that they were "utterly subject to his will he gave them back(Houghtom Milton Company The War of the Ring, the siege of Gondor, pg 335):

quote:

The Nazgul came once more slaves of the Nine Rings, and to each, since now they were utterly subject to his will, their lord gave again that ring of power he had USED* of old.

*to control them when he didn't have possession of the One Ring perhaps?

This message has been edited by Fingolfin of the Noldor on 03-26-2001 at


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Mithrandir
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Well, maybe when Sauron had the One ring, the Nazgul had their Nine, but not since he lost it.
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Roll of Honor Fingolfin of the Noldor
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But that quote states that he gave them back to the Nazgul after possessing them for a while.
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The Laurenendôrian
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In answer to Mog, I don't think they would have any difficulty holding the rings. They must have some physical form because they are born by ordinary horses. Also, they can hold weapons, as we know from 'A knife in the dark'. Finally, the rings were more than just physical.

Mithrandir, what evidence can you supply for your opinion?


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Mithrandir
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a couple things:
a) The Letters of Tolkien, clearly posted by Nimruzir.

b)logic. now i know all things in tolkien aren't logical, but this works out. The Nazgul are servants of TWO things. The One Ring, and there lust for there own ring. so, without the One to control them, he had to keep the 9. now maybe the Witch-King (Er-Murzor???) held his own ring, for Sauron also had something for him that he desired. power.

c)we (or I) don't specifically know the powers of the 9 rings, but somehow....i just sorta "sense" or get a feel that they don't do to much good once the human aspect of the creature has passed away, sort of an off-the-wall concept...


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Nimruzir
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Let's make this quick; the letter I cited (and as Marcho states when taken in context) is regarding Frodo at Mt. Doom - AFTER the fall of the Witch-King.

In other words; 8 Nazgul remain, but 9 Rings are mentioned as being held.

I'm not sure how much clearer this can be.

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Roll of Honor Fingolfin of the Noldor
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In your post you said that the quote was set at weather top not Mt. doom. According to my quote Sauron held the rings up until about the siege of Gondor when he gave them back, so if you take the former of what you said(since they are contradictary) my opinion can still be considered true.
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Mithrandir
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nazgul did not wear there rings during the War of THE RING
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Roll of Honor Fingolfin of the Noldor
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The how do you explain the quote?
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Mithrandir
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is it from H.o.M.E?
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Mithrandir
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very excellent point, i didn't think of that, and don't say it vanished, for the One hadn't been destroyed yet (and even if it had, took awhile, like Elvish rings)
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Roll of Honor Fingolfin of the Noldor
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We don't know that, the men of gondor( or anyone else that we know of) didn't, in fact they probably avoided the Witch-king's things.
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Mithrandir
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but it says that....in the book, thats a direct quote i believe.
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