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Minas Tirith Forums » Library Council of Minas Tirith » Why didn't Eagles just fly the Ring to Mt. Doom? (Page 4)
Author Topic: Why didn't Eagles just fly the Ring to Mt. Doom?
A Singer
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Eagle are an ancient symbol of divinity. A gentleman points out they might be interpreted as "divine intervention". The eagle was the bird of Jupiter and both
Dante and Theodoret clearly used eagles as the bird of God (Cf. Exodus) An earlier
post points out the journey is necessary and "divine pity" is a key concept. I would like to suggest they are part of the way Tolkien symbolizes how divine grace
operates in his world.

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Orome
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Well guess what.
I disagree.
It's too easy. I don't buy it.

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Dingalen
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Oromë, "too easy"? "Too easy", like in "the eagles would be corrupted by the ring."
Are you tired of the discussion or running out of arguments? []

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Orome
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Out of arguments? Well.. at the mom i don't have anything of substance to add.
I do think i made my point clearly and well however.

You think my argument is too superficial i think yours is too easy.

either way...

and yes im a little tired of rehashing this one... alot tired... or maybe im just sleepy.

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Dingalen
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The core message of any explanation is simple - that's why it might seem "too easy". The complexity arises from the detail and the correlation of evidences supporting the explanation.
And the explanation of the possible corruptive influence of the ring on the eagles does not convince, because it has little factual evidence: Tom Bombadil & Samwel Gamgee touched the ring without being corrupted, Gandalf/Aragorn/Gimli/Legolas/Merry/Pippin escorted the Ringbearer without falling prey to its lure of power, Galadriel resisted its temptation - why would the eagles be more likely to fail to resist? Why should Gandalf assume that a company of mortals (and one elf) would be more likely to resist than the the great eagles?
That just does not fit (to me).

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Orome
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If there was evidence seriously supporting any opinion on the subject certainly i would take another look at my stance, and probably change it.
As things are we have seen little real evidence for any argument. Thus i have chosen to defend the one which seems most logical to me. It is the most obvious (but not the easiest) argument.

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Middlemoor of Infantry
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“Would they not, also be tempted to use the ring for their own deeds?”

That is not convincing. Though the Eagles were great in their own respect, I do not they think they were that sort. Besides, some ways it could be planned would exclude them from carrying it long. Or else, they could carry Frodo who could bear the ring. For them to steal it from him would be no more likely than any other of the Fellowship, yet they let them go that way.

“It has been argued that the reason the eagles did not fly the Ring to Mt. Doom and drop it in the Crack is because they were not allowed to directly interfere with the destruction of the Ring and Sauron. Flying wizards around or attacking the Enemy's army did not count ("We did not have any flying relationship with that wizard").”

Speak more and provide sources. This is the first argument I can’t just dismiss.

“It has also been argued that the nazgul with their flying steeds would have posed too much of a threat to the eagles”

The Nazgul were distracted in order for Frodo to cross over to Mount Doom. In the same way or even some other way of stealth, it could be done again.

“if you ask me the reason is obvious it doesn't much of a story or they didn't think of that”

Don’t state the obvious. We know that is the answer, but this is an LoTR forum and thus we want to DISCUSS these things, not just leave them to logic of storytelling. We’re pretending the book is a quasi-reality almost, or at least pondering it’s mysteries.

“Stealth was needed when the ring left Rivendell, (or else they would have crossed the Misty Mountains using the same path used in 'The Hobbit') and giant eagles are not exactly inconspicuous.”

The Eagles don’t have to go the whole way, nor is it certain they would be caught. More certain you could argue, a small hobbit who relied on luck through half of his journey.

“And having already been annoyed by eagles indirectly during the First Age, Sauron should have had his best archers on the highest lookouts around the clock.”

It was said that the Nazgul were out of bowshot, except perhaps to the Elves. Could the Eagles not do that? And besides, I saw no indication in the book that Sauron was expecting an aerial plan. This is also unlikely as they could simply sneak past it, or perhaps just surprise him.

“I know that the Eagles managed to carry Gandalf and hobbits about, but surely to expect them to carry the rings all the way non-stop is a bit much.”

Again, why must they go all the way and non-stop? If they can carry Gandalf, surely they can carry a ring or a hobbit over the last stretches or perhaps in a flank.

“I think that the main reason is the risk.”

You think it not risky to give the ring to a tiny
man who was indeed captured and only saved by sheer stupidity of Orcs?

“Also, Hobbits had incredible resistance to it…”

This is always stated as fact. Is it truly so, or is that just what we are compelled to believe? I do not deny they perhaps had some quality of resistance, but I think in the end it was the hearts of those involved and not just a triumph of genetics that got them to Mount Doom, though Gollum's bane ultimately ended it all.

“The Eagles may not have fit into the narrow area, and would have had to fly them to the bottom of the mountain anyway, there being little area to land in.”

Cake.

“Well, I don't think the Eagles would have even wanted to give their services as transportation.’
They came to give their services in war and indeed, DID transport people.

“Just imagine if word got out to everyone in Middle Earth of being transported by air with help of the eagles =)”

Word did not ‘get out’ about the Fellowship.

“we know that sauron had the power to influence the weather, so why shouldn't he have created winds protecting his realm from flying enemies.”

Again, another interesting argument. But we need more info, for I noticed three things in the story. One, Sauron is dismayed by a weather (wind) change which he cannot control. Two, the Nazgul can fly perfectly fine, so can the Eagles entering under the shadow over Gondor.

“One example is Elrond's statement…”

A host of elves clad in armour is OBVIOUSLY less stealthy than Eagles. That quote helps us naught because it is of a different context.

“If so is it just the finger that the ring needs to be placed on to work in that respect?”

Romantic arguements arn't of much use, as we arn't telling a story here.

“The eagles also seem to operate under some restricted "rules of engagement". They never act on orders, nor does anyone expect their help.

They only help those who have made a courageous stand in the face of certain defeat and death. (Galdalf, I think, gets special treatment because of his relationship to Manwe) The rest of the time they stay out of it.

Many of the powerful entities in middle earth operate on their own set of rules. The ents don't get involved until trees are threatened, and of course the Valar themselves have decided to remain on the sidelines, sending emissaries like the Ishtari.”

Interesting. Got any more information?

“The Eagles are a dangerous "machine". I have used them sparingly, and that is the absolute limit of their credibility or usefulness.”

Tolkien’s quote. Credibility? Could that be taken as him cryptically saying that the Eagles would have ruined the story had he used them? And is he saying they would not be any more useful or else they would ruin it some other way, such as single-handedly winning some battle or taking Frodo all the way to Mordor in a couple days?

“However - they didn't turn up at the Battle of the Pelenor Fields, although that wasn't going too well either. This would suggest that they knew of Aragorn's journey up the river and didn't feel their aid was needed.”

To me, it seems to indicate that they WOULD help. However, their slow arrival can be seen as reluctance, though I think that defies their heroic arrival at the Black Gate. They are not a bad folk!

“As for Gandalf: He knew, he could not burden the eagles with the ring, because it would drag these proud & independent creatures into a war, that was not theirs to fight.”

Pride should not interfere with the freedom of people. Gandalf, if he was truly wise, would think not of pride but of the preservation of life and all that they loved.

“was the journey himself that allowed the destruction of the ring; the meeting with gollum, to be exact”

I don’t believe it was ever Tolkien’s intention to create a fate for Frodo, but rather a path for which to walk was the right thing for Frodo to do. I don’t think there is only one way which Frodo can do this, certainly he would have to carry the ring long. Remember, he had little-to-no problems at the start.

“We must assume that Gandalf knew the eagles could have been corrupted.”

We must never simply assume and call ourselves correct in an issue with so many possibilities which can’t be narrowed down easily due to our ignorance, as it is just a story. The issue is not cured by the “weak-of-will” excuse as easily as others…

“First, they need to be given the ring or be entrusted with the ringbearer.”

Of which there is no proof thus yet that they could not handle, certainly not with a pre-weariness Frodo.

“Eagles circling Rivendel could be noticed by spies of Sauron or Saruman - alarming them of the possibility that the ring could be moved by air.”

Then let the eagles ride on wagons! Or perhaps even low to the ground. Or, simply let them take a stealthy route. These are eagles, not pink elephants.

“The dark lord certainly had more assets in the air than just the flying Nazgul - assets which could and would be used for interception of the ring.”

If it was seen, and don’t think the Eagles are too weak to defend themselves.

“The eagles did not enter Mordor till Sauron was destroyed - they must have had a reason! Did they not dare to take the opening?”

No, you read the cries of joy at their arrival. There is something about them, it was not cowardice that held them back.

“Maybe a giant eagle could fly that distance in one hour.”

They flew to Mount Doom and back to pick up Frodo and Sam. I’m sure they could journey at least that far with the ring.

“As for the others - middle earth is not to be judged by warhammer or mage knight tabletop standards. It is not a game like diablo or warcraft.”

It is a story and you can only imagine what it can be ‘judged’ by.

Sorry if I offended anyone, I lost track of where I had typed rashly...I don't have a strong opinion on the matter, but nevertheless I have contributed my opinions on the arguements made.

[ 09-29-2002, 11:35 AM: Message edited by: Middlemoor of Infantry ]

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Leire
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Perhaps I have some insight on this matter. From Days' A Tolkien Bestiary
quote:
. . . (they) were always messengers and servants of Manwë.
Looking at the Eagles through this idea we can interpret them as Angels in nearly every sense; certainly they went where Manwë bid them at the times he told them to do so. Thus, we can conclude that Manwë did not order the Eagles to bear the Ring Bearers or the Fellowship, and that this was done so that the peoples of Middle Earth might themselves fullfill their destiny (with a little helping hand from Gandalf and co. [] )

I believe there is also such a quote in one of Tolkiens works, though I do not recall precisely where right now. Fingolfin, perhaps you recall where it is??? It should be somewhere in the Silm, but I'm not sure of the exact location.

[ 11-17-2002, 04:20 PM: Message edited by: Leire ]

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Roll of Honor Fingolfin of the Noldor
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I'm not sure what quote you are refering to Leire but I would certainly agree with you as to the roles of the Eagles of Manwe in Arda. In the Silm we have the following(is this what you were thinking of?):

quote:
Spirits in the shape of hawks and eagles flew ever to and from his halls; and their eyes could see to the depths of the seas, and pierce the hidden caverns beneath the world. Thus they brought word to him of well nigh all that passed in Arda; yet some things were hidden even from the eyes of Manwë and the servants of Manwe... -'Of the Beginning of Days' The Silmarillion
And in a rather related not to the source text Annals of Aman published in HoME 10 we have the following which I think well establishs there role:
quote:
Manwe however sent Maia spirits in Eagle form to dwell near Thangorodrim and keep watch on all that Melkor did and assist the Noldor in extreme cases. -pg 138 Morgoth's Ring 'Annals of Aman'
and also, I think, given an excerpt from a late essay in that same volume it becomes quite clear that there was a specific process of history which had to be maintained, what Tolkien elsewhere refered to as 'the fulfillment' of the music, wherein Elves and Men had specific roles in countering Morgoth and his underlings just as their themes had had in the countering of his discords before the world began. As I see it, it was then not for the Valar (or their servants) to interfer with this or take the responsibility on to themselves but perhaps rather to keep the process in check or maybe assure that it runs the proper course, perhaps that was their role in later ages. One of my absolute favorite quotes which I think very well sums up 'history' in Eä can be found in a commentary of Tolkien's to his work 'The Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth'(briefly discussed here). I think it definitely communicates the existence of a sort of fate for the different races and point to the parts they play:

quote:
According to the Ainulindale there were five stages of creation.
a. The creation of the Ainur
b. The communication by Eru of his Designs to the Ainur
c. The Great Music, which was as it were a rehearsal, and remained in the stage of thought or imagination
d. The 'Vision' of Eru, which was again only a foreshowing of possibility and was imcomplete.
e. The Achievement which is still going on



[ 11-17-2002, 10:27 PM: Message edited by: Fingolfin of the Noldor ]

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Thingol of Doriath
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To put my two bits in... I have to agree with Fingolfin. In the Silm (and other works) it is established that the Eagles were originally sent by Manwë to keep watch (to be his eyes and ears) and to help in extreme cases. In the War against Sauron, the Valar chose to keep a very low profile. The only help they sent were the Istari, and they were in the form of old, mortal men... sent to inspire, not to lead. If the Valar wouldn't attack Sauron in open arms, they weren't about to let the Eagles of Manwë solve the people of M-e's problems.

Now, I know this point might have been already presented in this thread and I might have missed it. So, before anybody points that out... my apologies!

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Dark Lord Andúril
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In the directors commentary to LOTR Peter Jackson said that he thought they didnt fly the rings because they wouldnt. They did not wish to meddle in the affairs of Middle-Earth.
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Iarnar the Desert Dog
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If the Valar had wanted to, they could have just sent Tulkas over to kick Sauron's derriere, but it seems like it was "part of the plan" to eventually hand over M-e to Men and let them run it themselves. Interfering so directly in the fate of M-e by either sending Tulkas or letting Manwe's eagles fly the One Ring to Orodruin would have been completely against this plan.

And Anduril, not to nitpick, but the Eagles did fly the One Ring, albeit unknowingly, on at least one occasion. That was Bilbo's journey from the top of the burning trees to the Carrock.

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Dark Lord Andúril
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Yes but hardly affected the fate of the whole od Middle-earth (knowingly) did it? I mean, I think they were allowed to help an old friend (Gandalf)
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Dark Lord Andúril
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not really... but thats just me (argh the pain of ti all!!)
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Hamfast's Son
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Could it also be that perhaps the ring wanted Frodo? After spending years in the company of Bilbo, perhaps the one ring which was the essence of evil saw in the Hobbits something extremely powerful and even a challenge to be consumed. The very fact that Gandalf considered the the halflings were so powerful, and also that Saruman spent time in the Shire after being banished from Isengard, leads me to consider that.

Evil tries to rule over that which does not submit. But evil met its match in a Hobbit. True power lies where one least expects it. Every creature that met the Hobbits for the first time was amazed by them. All evil, it seems, is amazed by the beauty of the power of intrinsic good, especially when it is found in an unlikely place. Perhaps even the one ring was seduced by that power intrinsic to a Hobbit, which eventually led to its own demise.

Hmmm..... I wonder.

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Dark Lord Andúril
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Erm... are you saying that the rings own will was daunted by hobbits? An interesting thought, but dont you think you are possibly taking the personfication of the ring a leetle too far?
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Hamfast's Son
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Well, we know that the ring had a will, and that it serched for its master and that at the inn of the prancing pony it may very well have been the rings doing that it slipped onto Frodo's finger during the fall. So, no, I don't think I'm taking the personification thing a teensy bit too far. But feel free to call me into accountability anytime, It keeps me sane.
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Hamfast's Son
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Also, I don't think that the ring was daunted by Hobbits, but rather by its own greed.
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Phernedlorion
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I think the reason is a lot more esoteric than what I've read so far- evryone seems to want a cut and dry answer... the eagles are very very "mysterious" creatures... we don't know a lot about them. Peter Jacksn mentions in the extended dvds something very interesting I thought- which is that the eagles weren't necessarily OF ME and to be respected and communicated only by the most wizardly (okay- the wizard part he didn't say but...) and so NOT to be merely treated as a ME taxicab service~ OH and yeah- it's a really long way to fly to Mt. Doom, it would be the most boring story, arrows HURT like hell and WE would be totally inprisoned in a Star Wars chat room hell right now!!!! P.S.~ hey Lucas- your day has ended. GIVE it UP! As Dieter on Sprockets used to say,- "Your story has become tiresome."
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Dark Lord Andúril
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A long way? Gwahir flew Gandalf pretty far, they could surely pass it on to a few couriers as it were...

Now, the ring had a will yes, but to say that this will could be conquered, infers that the ring could be cured into something good. I cannot see this. The ring is and always was, altogether evil. Even Gandalf wouldnt take it, "not even to keep it safe".

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Nash Rómerandir
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Read rapidly thru the thread but never saw any reference to the following so here's what I just thought about:

It is decided to take the ring to Mordor during Rivendell's council... There was simply no representant of the eagle folk at Rivendell!!! Why so? because eagle do not interfere with Elfs'n Mens'matters... They didn't saw lots of goblins getting out of their home under the mountains and followed them like in The Hobbit or didn't helped a friend in trouble like for Gandalf escape...

From there I came with a strange idea...

I just kept wondering how the council got together... Boromir had a vision, but I can't remember what led Gimli and Legolas to be there (stupid myself). If they came because of similar visions or 'spiritual calls' then eagles didn't took the ring to Mordor because it was against the will of whoever was at 'command' (Manwë? Eru himself?) who could easily make everybody unable to come out with that simple thought: "Hey, why don't we ask the eagles to fly the ring to Mordor??"

Now I actually don't remember what made the council come together in the first time (I never really thought that might have some real interest untill I came to thinking about this thread's question...) and I have to admit that I don't have enough time to look for these info right now. So if it's just that they received an invitation by 'mail' saying:

"Your presence is required at Rivendell on [put the right day here...] to discuss some important matter for the future of Middle Earth... [] "

then forget about this post and excuse me for bothering. []
But I just thought that if they somehow got there because of a 'supernatural' reason then you've got a possible (and plausible) answer to the question

[ 12-16-2002, 07:54 AM: Message edited by: Nash Balrog ]

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Lady Sandry of Ruatha
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nash balrog:boromir went for a dream,gimli came because a servant of sauron had visited his kind asking them to get the ring from frodo/bilbo, and Legolas came to say that gollum had escaped.
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Nash Rómerandir
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Thanx Maltariel,

quote:
Boromir went for a dream, Gimli came because a servant of Sauron had visited his kind asking them to get the ring from Frodo/Bilbo, and Legolas came to say that Gollum had escaped.
Thus their coming to Rivendell at the same time would just be a coincidence?... Can you really believe this? Sure there was a greater power at work there! And a greater power with a plan I'd say. But a plan which obviously didn't included the eagles for a reason we'll probably never know...

[ 12-17-2002, 02:02 AM: Message edited by: Nash Balrog ]

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The Tenth Nazgul
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Wouldn't really be an exciting story, would it?
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Roll of Honor Ecthelion of the Fountain
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nice thread here, yeah give it to an eagle,,,,,why wouldnt they be corrupted and take it? are we saying eagles wouldnt use the ring becuase they the have no fingers? they are manwes people, and we to me that says 'maiar' just as corruptable as any others
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