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Minas Tirith Forums » The Ivy Bush » The Movie's Influence on MT (Page 3)
Author Topic: The Movie's Influence on MT
Roll of Honor Varnafindë
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quote:
but an overall meaning when the author himself has seemingly spelled it out quite clearly? That doesn't seem debatable, it's an open and shut case.
It can be debated (not that I'm interested), but then it should be kept to a separate thread, not inserted as an off-topic protestation against the point of view of the existing thread. []
From: Narnia, also connected with Norway | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Snöwdog
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quote:
It is not debated. How one should look at a story is not really dabatable. It is just frustrating to try to have a discussion about a topic from my point of view just to have Lilliana spam the thread with needless insults and ruin it for me. Since WGW does very little mod work, unless it is in one of SSA's 'Inns' (which I guess is really more important since he is willing to take steps there) I simply have to shut the thread down and avoid the topic.

Nice. []

I guess I missed it. Darn.
From: In the Shadows of Annuminas | Registered: Aug 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Roll of Honor Varnafindë
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It's been a long time ago - back in the days when we could still shut down our own threads. Probably I didn't read it every time it happened.
From: Narnia, also connected with Norway | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Tuor
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quote:
It can be debated (not that I'm interested), but then it should be kept to a separate thread, not inserted as an off-topic protestation against the point of view of the existing thread.
Madomir was simply expressing the point of view which was simply taken as fact before the movies brought the masses to this site.
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Madomir
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quote:
It can be debated (not that I'm interested), but then it should be kept to a separate thread, not inserted as an off-topic protestation against the point of view of the existing thread.
Anything can be debated, if someone debated whether his intention was realized I could understand. The world is littered with unfulfilled good intentions. But when the author clearly states "I intended this" and then a third party states "um, no he didn't" I don't know, it seems rather pointless to me.

Tho' I agree with your overall point Varna , if one were to debate such a thing a separate thread is the way to go.

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Tuor
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quote:
But when the author clearly states "I intended this" and then a third party states "um, no he didn't" I don't know, it seems rather pointless to me.

Surprisingly, that does happen at times. The theory is that everytime you take in information (be it through hearing or reading) you are interpretting it. Therefore everything is an interpretation. Each interpretation is just as valid as any other. Therefore you can't say that anything is wrong.

Foolishness if you ask me. From what I've read of Shippey's work, JRR saw it as foolishness too.

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Hamfast Gamgee
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But I'm not even sure if this forum does predate the movies. Surely there always has been some knowledge that the movies were at least been made as long as this forum has been here. I struggle to find any post pre-dating 2000 in the archives and the movies were been made then. You know, I've always had a tad suspicion that some of the real oldbies did join up here as an excuse to have a bit of a purist rant as they were even then suspicious about the movies []
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Glóin the Dark
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quote:
I struggle to find any post pre-dating 2000 in the archives
Don't be doing that! It would be a struggle and a half, since the first citizen hadn't registered before the 21st of May that year.
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The Dread Pirate Roberts
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I see your point, Tuor, but authorial intent isn't always so clear.

Who was Gil-Galad's father? Orodreth? Are you sure? Are we sure Tolkien's ephemeral idea that it might be Fingon wouldn't have taken root again had Tolkien lived another year, month, or even one more day? (this may not be the best example, but it's the one that popped into my mind)

Fact is, Tolkien was taken away from the world before much of his world was completed. He was changing his mind about many things throughout his life, as we all do. Is his most recent decision on a subject the "correct" one? Why? Why does the intent of the older author supersede his intent when younger? Does publication make a difference? How much? Is it possible to accept that some, perhaps many, things are irreconcilable and may indeed have several acceptable interpretations?

These are things we can and perhaps should debate. They would make for interesting discussions. What happens too often, though, is some threadkiller comes in with a HoME or Letters quote and case-closed the thread dies or it devolves into a flame war.

HoME and Letters are useful. They're wonderful aids in discovering backstory and authorial intent. But they should be a catalyst for further discussion, not a wet blanket or an end-all. Whether something in HoME or Letters should supersede published material is open for discussion but the views seem too polarized for much discussion to take place; for many the answer is either YES or NO.

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Belthronding
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Good questions, there.
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Tuor
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Dread Pirate,

Does the fact that we don't have clear information on some issues mean that we don't have clear information on all?

Let's compare apples with apples here.

Yes, there is still debate among those who believe in the autorial intent side of the issue. That's what we used to do for enjoyment or self righteousness back then, and still do a little today.

But that does not change the issue that the movies (post media hype for those who want to split hairs) brought in the masses. The rest I already said.

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Roll of Honor Varnafindë
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So what influence does the fact that the masses are moving out again, have on MT?
From: Narnia, also connected with Norway | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Tuor
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I would say what was left in the wake.

We will see what will come to fill the void.

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The Dread Pirate Roberts
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Apologies for going with the flow and getting a little OT for the sake of discussion. I'll try not to make that mistake again. []

Many of the movie-philes have left, true. Know who else left? The old guard. How many three-digit members do you see around here? Even up north, the city is occupied with many >2K member numbers. And they contribute. The volume is lower but the contributions are significant.

Did the movie-philes drive out the old guard? I don't know. What I do know is that many of us who remain truly love Minas Tirith and the discussions that take place here. Still.

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Tuor
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quote:
Apologies for going with the flow and getting a little OT for the sake of discussion.
It is my opinion that threads should stay on topic. If you want to have a discussion on a tangent issue, then start up a new thread.

quote:
What I do know is that many of us who remain truly love Minas Tirith and the discussions that take place here. Still.
With the bad come the good.

As far as discussion goes, I do not believe in discussion for the sake of discussion. There are things I'm concerned with and things I'm not concerned with. Common interest? Great have a discussion. Simply want to argue and say that the discussion I'm trying to have is wrong? I'm not interested.

[ 08-15-2007, 12:47 AM: Message edited by: Tuor ]

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Belthronding
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Sounds pretty selfish - as though you don't care to be part of a community that shares common interest.
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The Dread Pirate Roberts
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I agree, Tuor, that literary threads should try to remain on topic, and that the thread starter has every right to direct the flow of discussion.

Social threads in the Inns are no different than a group in a pub having a conversation. If the conversation drifts, so be it. Go with the flow. The person who spoke first doesn't merit the same respect he or she does in a literary thread.

Start a thread up north and one has every right to direct the conversation. Here in the inns the atmosphere is more conversational and flowing; it won't be controlled.

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Tuor
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Bel,
quote:
Sounds pretty selfish - as though you don't care to be part of a community that shares common interest.
It is better than having to deal with someone you disagree with, just to disagree. In the end, it just ends up in telling each other to go screw yourselves.

If I were to respond to your last post in my thread about Turin, that would have been my exact response to you. But that wouldn't have been helpful, so I simply did not reply. All you have done is ruined the thread for me.

Someone jumping in simply to ruin the thread for the person who started it is wrong. It too is selfish. It is the very kind of crap which stops people from wanting to post anything to this site.

Dread,
quote:
I agree, Tuor, that literary threads should try to remain on topic, and that the thread starter has every right to direct the flow of discussion.

I think this is true for any thread. I believe it is consistant with WGW's philosophy. Where do the private threads exist? In the literary forums?
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Madomir
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quote:
It is better than having to deal with someone you disagree with, just to disagree. In the end, it just ends up in telling each other to go screw yourselves.

If I were to respond to your last post in my thread about Turin, that would have been my exact response to you. But that wouldn't have been helpful, so I simply did not reply. All you have done is ruined the thread for me.

You may have supplied the solution to your own problem..

quote:
Where do the private threads exist? In the literary forums?
Perhaps you should start a private thread in the lits.. then you could invite all the like-minded people you want to invite, and dictate the direction of the conversation.
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Tuor
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I would prefer to keep it open for all who would like to add and simply keep out those who just want to crap in it. []

But WGW has said that he would prefer the 'exclude most people' mode of doing business, so I honor his wishes. I have a problem with those kinds of threads, so I don't start them.

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Belthronding
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Are you saying I "put crap" into your thread about Turin? You asked an open question, and I answered with my opinion, supported by evidence that I thought was appropriate. I simply said it was a literary device. How is that "crap?"
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White Gold Wielder
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So should I just delete the last 8-9 posts then? The topic starter has the right to request such action. []
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The Dread Pirate Roberts
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It is easy to become attached to one's own ideas to the point that disagreement is taken either personally or as an attack on the thread. We've all probably done it at times. It only becomes a problem when one does it all the time.

And now we're WAY OT. DELETE US ALL WGW!!!

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Madomir
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Tuor you're taking an extremely rigid stance in all this, I don't think a stance like that is likely to bring you much happiness in a community this large and diverse. A discussion is a dynamic thing, there's an ebb and flow, it moves. You have contributors who may be considering an issue for the first time formulating their opinions and theories on the fly. Under such conditions tangents will appear, such tangents are a natural occurance not an attempt to spew forth crap or sabotage a thread. What you're suggesting sounds more like a straight Q & A, the end result being 50 threads with 5 posts or fewer.

post 1: here's your question
post 2: here's your answer
post 3: are you sure?
post 4: of course, there's only 1 answer
post 5: ok, next question

Where's the entertainment in that?

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Snöwdog
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quote:
HoME and Letters are useful. They're wonderful aids in discovering backstory and authorial intent. But they should be a catalyst for further discussion, not a wet blanket or an end-all. Whether something in HoME or Letters should supersede published material is open for discussion but the views seem too polarized for much discussion to take place; for many the answer is either YES or NO.
This 'wet blanket' approach many take in lit discusions is the main reason why I don't partake. That and anything I may want to add to a particular topic may just be seen as 'crap' and ruin the thread for others. []

Back on topic...

The Movie's influence on MT...
They brought thousands of users to MT...
Are you sure?
Yes, its a fact.
Ok, next topic....
[] []

From: In the Shadows of Annuminas | Registered: Aug 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
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