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Minas Tirith Forums » The Ivy Bush » The Movie's Influence on MT (Page 2)
Author Topic: The Movie's Influence on MT
Snöwdog
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quote:
Basically, I agree with every word that Tuor just posted.
And I agree with every word Thorin said here, which makes me basicly agreeing with what Tuor said in opening.

My 30 some year love affair with Tolkien's stories seemed to come to an end after Tolkien was swamped with pop culture that flocked to everything Tolkien in worship of P.J.'s movies. Sure, we're very amicable and are still friends. We even dated when Children of Hurin came out, but that magical feeling I had in 1975-77, or 1984, or 2000 seems to have faded. I was never too much on discussing much in the lit forums here as I seemed to have done that elsewhere. I never saw much use in discussing or arguing every dot or tittle Christopher Tolkien could scrounge up to publish to tell me what The Lord of the Rings was suppose to mean to me.

Minas Tirith has pretty much followed the curve as WGW said, and I admire his dedication to this place and in keeping it strictly Tolkien and without ads. To me it keeps the magical feel of yore alive!
quote:
the world seems a better place with Minas Tirith in it
It sure is! I have to say my life is better for it as well! []
From: In the Shadows of Annuminas | Registered: Aug 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Tuor
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quote:
My 30 some year love affair with Tolkien's stories seemed to come to an end after Tolkien was swamped with pop culture that flocked to everything Tolkien in worship of P.J.'s movies.
I think you just hit it on the head. When I mentioned "study" in my earlier post, for me it isn't study. I didn't read Morgoth's Ring as a drudgery, but because I was interested in what I was reading. There was information I craved. I wanted to understand. I enjoyed it. I was, and still am to a certain extent, a Tolkien nerd. We were all Tolkien nerds.

Fingy made his charts and later avatars because he loved doing it. Reading Tolkien wasn't work, it was pleasure. This kind of stuff was the 'cool' thing to do. Every new aquistion, be it Letters, Morgoth's Ring, or UT was a joy. New stories to read. Getting to find out first hand information I had seen in threads, plus other stuff that has never been mentioned. I think we kind of fed off each other. A great quote from a book made others want to buy the book.

But Pop culture has different values. Even most nerds have different values.

Snowdog, I was always impressed with your observations concerning the early kings of Gondor. If I'm putting the correct person to the correct posts, you knowledge of that time period is very impressive. After reading your posts I'd break out HoME and open up the Appendix to read up on the names to get things in line.

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Thingol of Doriath
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I arrived because of the movies... I was a big fan of Tolkien in my early teens. When the movies were announced I reread everything and rediscovered Tolkien. Researching Tolkien on the Internet brought me here. I am not a big fan of the movies, though I am thankful that they brought Tolkien back into my life. [] So, surely, that's a positive influence the movies had... []

How has MT changed? I can only speak for myself. For a long time I came here mainly to discuss Tolkien. Venturing into the Perch and Pony in between posts in the lit forums. It pains me to say it, but in the past six months I've lost interest in discussing Tolkien. For me... I've discussed/debated everything I'm interested in. I don't reread Tolkien like I used to.(*) I haven't seen any new discussions I feel like participating in. Certain posters up north, I'm sad to say, have driven me away as well... rudeness or plain tomfoolery has frustrated me. So, for me, MT has become as you described Tuor. A place to chat with a Middle-earth background.

Why am I still here? I suppose it is twofold. I have met many friends here, a good deal who I've met now in RL as well. I'm also hoping that my interest in Tolkien will be reawoken soon. [] Hopefully after reading The Children of Húrin and the new Hobbit book... which I plan on buying when they come out in Sweden in paperback. I still read all of the posts in the literary forums... I especially enjoy Thorin's posts as well as the new French group led by Eluchil. Both of them, as well as Snowdog at times, bump age old threads to add new information which I enjoy. I reread these threads and if something strikes my fancy... I will post.

(*)- This might be caused, in my case, by a new literary obsession: George Martin's series. I've started visiting websites concerning his works to discuss and argue minute details like I once did here. []

[ 07-15-2007, 03:24 PM: Message edited by: Thingol of Doriath ]

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Snöwdog
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quote:
(*)- This might be caused, in my case, by a new literary obsession: George Martin's series. I've started visiting websites concerning his works to discuss and argue minute details like I once did here.
I really wanted to get into G.R.R. Martin's Ice & Fire series... I really tried... more than once... Many many people whose opinions I respect told me they were good bokks... but Game of Thrones never would engage me and it would sit. I think in one attempt I got to the 6th chapter. I finally scratched the series off my 'to read' list. Good on you for getting into it! I myself have done the same with Glen Cook's Black Company series.
quote:
Snowdog, I was always impressed with your observations concerning the early kings of Gondor. If I'm putting the correct person to the correct posts, you knowledge of that time period is very impressive. After reading your posts I'd break out HoME and open up the Appendix to read up on the names to get things in line.
I do like researching the Line of Kings of both Arnor and Gondor. The generations of man change with the centuries and I always found them intriguing. Appendix A tales of the Kin-strife & the end of Arthedain caught my attention my first reading in 1976.
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Roll of Honor Éomer
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All I know is that I probably wouldn't be here if not for the movies, and you all would be much better off.

Er, worse! I meant worse! []

I tried to get into the whole "study Tolkien" thing a couple years ago, but I had a hard time finding the appeal in it. For me, it's all just fiction, and was meant simply to entertain people and tell the modern world a story in the traditional style. It's a great story, one of the best, but that's all it is to me.

However, I do enjoy studying the linguistics. The amount of work and dedication that Tolkien put into the languages of his world still amazes me.

[ 07-16-2007, 07:48 AM: Message edited by: Éomer ]

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Snöwdog
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quote:
I tried to get into the whole "study Tolkien" thing a couple years ago, but I had a hard time finding the appeal in it. For me, it's all just fiction, and was meant simply to entertain people and tell the modern world a story in the traditional style. It's a great story, one of the best, but that's all it is to me.
I think Eomer makes the whole point of this thread clear. []
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Eluchil
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Indeed, but to get deeper in the Legendarium can also be an entertainment []
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Captain of Gondor
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I whole heartedly agree.

The only thing that makes me disgusted is when you have those people who watch the movie, then think they know everything about the books. And when you tell them things in the books that aren't on the movie, they think you're loony. My cousin and aunt are both like that. [] Really annoying.

[ 08-04-2007, 02:53 AM: Message edited by: Captain of Gondor ]

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Hamfast Gamgee
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I have to be honest and say that *whisper, whisper,* I actually quite liked the movies and thought they were a reasonable interpretation of Middle-earth. Although I prefer the books and think they are better and almost certainly always will be than anyone's cinamatic production.

Yet it does get on my nerves that people such as work colleagues talk to me about Lotr and they tend to mean the movies, while I want to talk about Tom Bombadil, the relationship between Ugluk and Grishnakh, or the scouring of the Shire.

I mean, some people don't even know the difference between Quenya and Sindarian, tuts! But, I am afraid CoG, that's life and we're just going to have to get over it. Lotr the books is a bit of a cult thing after all!

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Tuor
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Hamfast,

Things used to be more of a cult thing around here. That's the point I was trying to make, and the point that Snowdog made in his last post.

The number of people around here also used to be very small. Perhaps in the not so distant future the numbers will be much more in line with pre-movie numbers. The slow down is also quite evident in pretty much every Tolkien Site that I ever read.

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Madomir
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quote:
The only thing that makes me disgusted is when you have those people who watch the movie, then think they know everything about the books.
That is one of the cornerstone complaints many purists have against PJ and his movies. His changes get ingrained in the minds of many who saw the movies before reading the books, to many the movies represent the true story, including PJ's "improvements". I know some who decided not to read the books because they "saw the films and already know the story now". Ug.. they've been cheated out of one of the world's truly great epics by just another Hollywood blockbuster. []
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Roll of Honor Varnafindë
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I "already know the story" from reading the books. It doesn't stop me from reading the books all over again. And again. And ... []

Reading a good book is not firstly about finding out about the story.
Those people are really missing out on something []

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Snöwdog
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quote:
I know some who decided not to read the books because they "saw the films and already know the story now". Ug.. they've been cheated out of one of the world's truly great epics by just another Hollywood blockbuster. []
It's most likely they couldn't be @ssed to read the books. Possibly they would have lacked the capability of visual imagination to mentally portray Galadriel as anyone but Cate Blanchett if they had read the books before seeing the movie.

I'm afraid the lore of J.R.R. Tolkien's tale Lord Of The Rings has been contaminated by P.J.'s monitarily successful interpretation. You see, when an individual reads a book, its an individual thing and the reader's imagination conjour up its own unique images of the setting and characters based on what's read. But a movie is all about how the writers and directors see the book story, and that is all laid out and filmed with actors they see as being the part, and its put on a big screen for the masses to consume. This happened to me back when the Dune movie was coming out. I got the book to read, but didn't get around to it before seeing Lynch's movie. Afterward, I tried to read the book but couldn't get the imagry out of my head. I never finished the book (I did start and finish it 18 years later after the images finally faded).

I think one of the areas that was really affected by the LoTR movies is the area of art. For example, I used to see artwork on the net with differing visions of what Aragorn looked like. Now, many of the 'Aragorns' out there are really sketches of Viggo in costume. Sure the art is well done, but it lacks individual imagination. Fortunately I still come across a few good artists who still portray their own visions of Middle Earth and not the one given them by the movie.

I should ad that there have been some good book discussions in th epast, but I think th emovies affected this discussion in such a way that it has faded under the totality of what th emovies portrayed. Too many times the movies get brought up in book discussions, and it seems a certain 'absoluteness of opinion' causes discussion to become a touting as to why one's opinion is more correct than another's. So then the active threads become trivia and password games.

[ 08-09-2007, 05:06 AM: Message edited by: Snöwdog ]

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Tuor
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quote:
I should add that there have been some good book discussions in the past, but I think the movies affected this discussion in such a way that it has faded under the totality of what the movies portrayed. Too many times the movies get brought up in book discussions, and it seems a certain 'absoluteness of opinion' causes discussion to become a touting as to why one's opinion is more correct than another's.
I think you nailed it on the head with your last point. Before there was no questioning Tolkien's ideas or at the very least his words as the driving force of invisioning Middle-earth. True, there have always been arguments on "cannon" (one 'n' or two, I always forget). But at the very least there was always a reference to published texts.

The movies brought in the new group of 'literature specialists' who have a different way of viewing Tolkien's work. As I've had the honor of reading a number of times "authorial intent is dead". This is a new mindset which has infested supposedly 'Tolkien' board. With the advent of the movies, we now how an alternative way to view Middle-earth. It is supposed to be an equally valid point of view. It is PJ's point of view. How dare anyone say that any point of view is not valid. []

Rather pointless.

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Roll of Honor Varnafindë
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Is that view something that the movies brought in?
I thought that was one trend within literary analysis which didn't have anything to do with the movies, and existed before them.

Did the movies bring that trend into MT (and other boards) discussions?

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Tuor
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Before, literary analysis wasn't the big thing. We just used to be a group of people who loved to discuss Middle-earth. The movies brought in the general population and from within that general poplulation came the literary crowd.

Go back and read the older threads and see how many times someone said something along the lines of 'Who cares what Tolkien thought?'

If they did, then see what kind of reaction they got.

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Roll of Honor Varnafindë
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quote:
We just used to be a group of people who loved to discuss Middle-earth.
That's what I like doing - not discussing his works as in literary analysis.
I like to pretend that his world was real, and to try to work out what his description of it shows us about that world.

My main area of interest these days is the RPing in the Green Dragon, mainly the RPs where we try to be true to Tolkien's descriptions.
Those RPs have made me buy several tomes of HoME - I needed to check out the details.

And then I came across some of his later texts, which were in there as well - the Athrabeth being my over all favorite []

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Tuor
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My wife used to comment that I would discuss Tolkien's stories as if they were real. It bothered her at times. To tell you the truth, sometimes it bothered me. It can really suck you in. But I suppose 'getting sucked in' can happen in any hobby, including chess. []

[ 08-09-2007, 06:18 PM: Message edited by: Tuor ]

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Roll of Honor Varnafindë
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If by 'getting sucked in' you mean spending a large part of your spare time on your hobby, sure it can happen with other hobbies too ...

I'm sometimes bothered by spending too much time on it, but not on discussing it as if it was real.
If you look at Tolkien's view of 'sub-creation', isn't he saying that the sub-creator creates some kind of secondary reality?
So within that reality, it is real.

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Madomir
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quote:
I've had the honor of reading a number of times "authorial intent is dead".
What type of intent are you refering to here? How he intended his world to look and feel? Or how he intended the reader to view ME? Or maybe it's some other third thing.
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Roll of Honor Varnafindë
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Sometimes it means a general "the author knows best what is the meaning behind his works" - which is then disputed.

It's used especially when one is talking about 'what the story is really all about' (I believe Tolkien said in one of his letters that LotR 'is really about death').

So it's perhaps more to do with the meaning of the works, rather than control over the details.

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Roll of Honor Aikanáro
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(apologies for the irrelevance)

Thingy - me too. [] I'm convinced that R+L=J now, if nothing else. Thank you for getting me hooked on that series!

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Inc'
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(
quote:
I believe Tolkien said in one of his letters that LotR 'is really about death'
Indeed, Death and Immortality (Letters #186, 203...)
)

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Madomir
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quote:
Sometimes it means a general "the author knows best what is the meaning behind his works" - which is then disputed.

It's used especially when one is talking about 'what the story is really all about' (I believe Tolkien said in one of his letters that LotR 'is really about death').

Well that makes sense and seems to fit what Tuor was saying.. but is that really a hotly disputed topic around here? I can understand disputing motives and strategies within the narrative itself (ie: why did Aragorn do this or that), but an overall meaning when the author himself has seemingly spelled it out quite clearly? That doesn't seem debatable, it's an open and shut case.
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Tuor
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It is not debated. How one should look at a story is not really dabatable. It is just frustrating to try to have a discussion about a topic from my point of view just to have Lilliana spam the thread with needless insults and ruin it for me. Since WGW does very little mod work, unless it is in one of SSA's 'Inns' (which I guess is really more important since he is willing to take steps there) I simply have to shut the thread down and avoid the topic.

Nice. []

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