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Minas Tirith Forums » Minas Tirith Site Announcements » The Official "MT is going downhill" Thread (Page 2)
Author Topic: The Official "MT is going downhill" Thread
Adanedhel
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 1011

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Rather interesting..... I suppose this is one of those rare times where I will post outside of my 'hidey-hole' in the Green Dragon. I am not one for talk of the finer points of Tolkien's literature, frankly it bores me. Writing and creating my own stories, legends and so on using Tolkien's foundations appeals more to me than talking about the finer mechanics of his writings. Though, yes, I do read the literature threads when I need more information for something I am writing in an role play or just to learn more about that which has made me a much better person.

I would have to agree though with the few who have voiced their concern over the fact that some of the 'regulars' in the literature forums have a bad habit of ignoring people who do not have either:

a) More than just a basic understanding of Tolkien's works
b) are fairly new
c) or have a reputation of spending a lot of time in the Prancing Pony

I, too, started my days here trying to post in the literary forums but found myself ignored and talked around. For a 'Newbie' this is very bad first experience. Though when I first came here (Nigh on 2 years ago) things in the Prancing Pony were not nearly as bad (In my own humble opinion) and there were many faces that graced these fair streets that now are only here in memory of their legendary antics. It is a shame that some of the more 'famous' (if you could use such a word here) have left us, but things change and though they left very large holes to fill new people emerge in their place to take this status as being well respected and well known throughout the city.

Frankly though, the literature forums seem to be a community set apart, much like that of Berlin of the Cold War. A wall exists between the North of the City and the South, any trying to cross from the South to the North are unceremoniously shot down never to return. A Cold War is slowly destroying that which White Gold Wielder has worked so hard to create and preserve, and is causing people that we can ill afford to lose disappear as they lose respect for Minas Tirith and some of it's inhabitants.
Respect is a fundamental 'glue' that keeps a community together, you cannot create it but you can destroy it. It is much harder to create it than to destroy....

[ 07-26-2003, 05:59 PM: Message edited by: Adanedhel ]

From: Hithlum (Dor-Lomin) | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Roll of Honor Eowyn of Edoras
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Citizen # 714

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The title of this thread is making me extremely depressed. [] []


Anyways, I only read the literary forums, because I find I rarely know enough to post in them. Reading is enough for me.

But I also agree with Miz Lobelia about how the literary forums could be handled more diplomaticly. []

EDIT: I remembered more stuff I wanted to say.


I really haven't realized the growing conflicts in the Pony amomg members. I tend to never join Inns and I don't feel like I have to post in every birthday thread or a random talking thread. Hence the low post count in my profile.
There are some things I'd like to be a part of, like Kith and Kin or the Stone Troll, but I've never joined. That's the reason why I've been here 2 years and no one knows me at all.

Anyway.........Great job WGW!!!

[ 07-26-2003, 06:38 PM: Message edited by: Eowyn of Edoras ]

From: Pa, USA | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Roll of Honor Ninj
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When I first came here I only posted in the literary forums, now there are far more people that know a helluva lot more than I do, and the only way I can genuinely contribute is if I get to a new thread before anyone else...
From: The magical elven realmadi-blah-di-blah | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Roll of Honor EowynatHeart
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Citizen # 3437

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I have 3 things to say:

1.) WGW, I am sorry that you had to start this thread. I also think that you are a wonderful Steward. I read other Tolkien discussion sites but MT is the only place I am a citizen of. The people here are so much nice and it just feels like a family. You do what you have to do WGW, after all, MT is your home, you just let us visit.

2.) I hate the fights. Stupid and needless. I, like some of the other citizens, think problems should be handled over PM. Posting it for all the world to see only brings down the whole city. Handle it. If you only do nothing but to agree to disagree, do it and let it drop. Putting people on your ignore list or not responding is not handling it. The wound will just fester and not get any better. Handle it with respect with the other persons feelings in mind.

3.) I like the Lit forums. I use to post there a bit at first and I had so many questions and threads I wanted to start. I would write them down and then go and search and sure enough, it had already been discussed. I would read the thread and think well, that answered my question and move on. I so admire the citizens that post there and marvel at their knowledge. I will be reading a thread and find something that I never knew or had read a dozen times, and just totally over looked it. I will grab my book and read it and think, well that makes sense, or that's what that means. The times that I have posted I was never over looked or made to feel inferior. I so enjoy the trivia thread. I like to watch it go. I will admit, I have not posted there in sometime and feel terrible because of it. I am rereading The Silm, because the first time, it went right over my head. So now I am reading it and taking notes as I go. When I am finished, I plan on posting in that Lit forum. I love the Pony and have made many dear friends and for me it's more of an escape and a place to let loose some pent up child like energy. I have made a promise to myself that I would post in the Lit forums more and not just read them.

In closing. MT is my little fantasy world. I protray someone on here that is close to what I am really like in the RW, but on here, I can let my silliness and tough side come out, where as in RL, I have to be more reserved and follow directions. That is why Éowyn is so close to my heart. She was strong and independant but still had to be subject to a higher authority. Please don't let MT fall. The peoples of Middle Earth fought an unsure battle just to keep the White City out of the hands of evil, lets do the same.

From: Wait! The map was upside down!!!!! | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
White Gold Wielder
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Citizen # 2

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Well, to revisit the conversation, my initial point was really only about the cancer of endless fighting that had gotten out of hand.

My opinion on The Literary Forums isn't so negative. I was the first to call for patience when there first were complaints about lulls in posts. I was the first to talk about the cycles and seasons of everything, especially as it pertains to people's interest in a topic.

I have also known another fact for a long time, I just had forgotten how true it is until recently. That is, any free-form gathering of thoughts and ideas always suffers unless one or a few champions keep the discussion driving forward.

In the past year at least, I have been posting very little in the lit forums. I don’t think it is a coincidence that many consider the current state of these forums to be at their most lull-like. I know there are a few who have kept the non-game part of the forums as active as they can, and I sincerely appreciate the effort. Still, without someone posting questions that everyone can answer along with high-level questions, or posting with the expressed purpose of generating city-wide discussion, then a lull is inevitable. I had hoped I could be allowed a hiatus to pay more attention to other areas of admin, but I see I have let things go too long.

I am again reading much more Tolkien than I have in the past few months. I have a few questions on deck, I just haven’t had the time since I’ve been too busy at work. I have made a private commitment to myself to post in The Literary Forums at least once per week. If everyone did that, wow!

As for harsh treatment of the less-learned in these forums, I am not a big fan. However, if someone folds under a curt statement, perhaps they didn’t have the tools to participate much anyway. If someone posts an inane question or one that has been answered countless times, they deserve a bit of a spank. What I don’t tolerate is ridicule of answers to posts. This is a big difference and thankfully it doesn’t happen often.

Well, I need to go somewhere so I’ll end there for now. To be continued...

From: Chicago | Registered: May 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Raven
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Citizen # 1284

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I was thinking today (Don't gasp to loud now. [] ) and I think I figured out something about the Lit.

It's like this ancient form of bartering in Africa. The two parties, one trading gold the other trading salt. One would put out gold, then the salt people would take it and if it was enough give back salt-if not give nothing until more gold was given.

If you post in the Lit, you put out gold. Whether this is enough for some people to post is like whether it's enough gold to put out salt. If you don't put out enough gold-don't expect salt in return! If you take the gold-return the trade in salt! It's that simple; don't whine about being ignored if you don't put enough into your posts to make them matter. If you put up enough gold you will get salt in return!

I don't think I'm making any sense but I have a headache so forgive my eccentric ranting...
[]

E:Sorry WGW, didn't see your post before. [] Once again kudos for keeping the city this peaceful for this long. This littel rough patch will blow over. Don't beat yourself up so much about it. []

[ 07-26-2003, 09:09 PM: Message edited by: Mad Malgilwen ]

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We work in the dark - we do what we can - we give what we have. Our doubt is our passion and our passion is our task. The rest is the madness of art.

From: Garden State | Registered: Dec 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Roland
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I don't know much about the bickering, and I'm glad I do not. I do know that, back when I used to come to MT on a regular basis, I loved entering into the literary discussions whether reading or posting. For a time, I would spend a good amount of time making thought-out posts in the lit forums. The only reason I have since stopped is due to redundancy. All of us who would provide valuable, informative posts would later see them get buried and the same old questions would arise which had already been answered and discussed.
From: The greatest nation on God's green Earth | Registered: Feb 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Tuor
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Yes, many threads are redundant, that is why I post links to the older threads! I guess I was lucky enough to stumble upon this site early enough that many of the topics I learned from were not redundant. I was also lucky enough to hit this site when Nimruzir was in a teaching frame of mind.
From: Oklahoma | Registered: Mar 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Roll of Honor Anariel Aureva
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Citizen # 3741

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It saddens me to think that MT is "going down" when I just joined. I have a passion for learning anything that is related to Tolkien's works, and so far MT has been the best resouce (other than the books, of course). I hope that other citizens share the same passion, so that together we can all stop the degrading of MT.

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~Ar i Alatairë milya yellëame már
nórenna séreva ar valdë nu i rimba eleni. Órelma milya menel.

From: Laurëanórë | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Aragorn_croatia
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Citizen # 492
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Wow this is not good to see when I came back...(Roland, my man, hope you still remember me...)

Anyways, will check around and post back with feedback. A lot has cahnged, I can tell you that WGW

From: Atlanta, GA / South Kent, CT | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Halion
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Citizen # 2140
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I felt like coming south for a change. []

Everyone who feels their literary posts have been ignored: please give links to them; I promise I will try to reply to all of them. []

Also, if anyone feels that you have to read the books an awful lot of times to be a 'good' and regular literary poster: I don't think that's necessarily true; of course it helps, but it's more important to read them carefully and understand them, have a good memory of important 'details', and not read them just for 'entertainment'. Perhaps some of you would be a little suprised if I told you how many times I have read The Silmarillion, The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings... I've read other relevant but more obscure works too of course, but let's not go into that. []

I seem to have some kind of undeserved reputation of being one of the more knowledgeable literary posters here on MT. The truth is that I have to admit that I'm starting to feel that I gain less and less from reading the Lits (kind of natural of course), and that I'm mostly here for replying to questions others are asking, but I only seem to be good at 'special' and more obscure topics. For example, I feel a bit intimidated by the some of the games, especially 'The Password Game'. [] (The knowledge of the Password regulars is needed elsewhere. [] ) My point is that I think every Tolkien book fan on MT has something they're especially good at concerning Tolkien and everyone should be able to contribute. For example, I'm sure SSA would be able to start really interesting and high level threads about the language aspects of Tolkien's works if she felt like it, while I could start a thread about the height of the Meneltarma or something like that. []

If you feel you're not able to reply in literary threads, a lack of knowledge probably has something to do with it. That means there is probably something you are wondering about yourself, so why not start a thread about it? Just start new ones if you can't reply to the existing ones. []

One last thing: if anyone thinks that I'm elitist, these are my only reasons for being on MT:

1) Learn more about the works of J.R.R. Tolkien
2) Help others to learn more about the works of J.R.R. Tolkien

And those could perhaps be reversed. []

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Roll of Honor Ecthelion of the Fountain
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Citizen # 955
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respect has been brought up many times. i have differing views on respect than many people it seems. respect is not to be given to anyone, anytime. respect is to be earned; the harder it is to earn ones respect the more that respect is worth. respect that is given freely is not worth a damn thing. everything that is truly rewarding and has worth will not come easily. once it is earned it is hard to lose. you decide if i respect you or not

i see that some people are claiming that the north side of the tracks are unkind, and a closed circle. i say thats bs, any citizen who posts relevant, coherent posts and contribute to the discussion is embraced. perhaps by stigmatizing the literary threads, claiming they are cold, some southern posters feel justified by not posting where the 'mean folk' are because they claim will naturally be ignored and called a fool. you only grow by taking a chance... minastirith is here to be a center for tolkien related discussion, those not using it for such are using an ice cream scoop to play ping pong

everyone. Please take maerbeen up on his offer, really do. he offers to remove the reason some of you hide behind for not posting; what are you afraid of?

you don’t need to remember everything about the books as maerbenn above said. i don’t claim to know much about tolkien (i just remember all the trival bits) but one thing that helps is that nigh on the complete works of john are within easy reach of the computer i do the majority of my posting on, many are laying on the desk, popsicle stick and bus transfers marking my place. it is not illegal to have the books when posting, its highly encouraged.

im here to talk about tolkien, my friends are slow to take up the books and i came here in hopes of finding people to talk to in a somewhat educated manner on the matter. i think that was the driving force behind the site, we owe it to the creator of mt to try to see out his vision.

From: seattle, wa, usa | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Aylah the Wind Sister
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When I posted earlier in this thread, I was referring o something that happened when I was very new at MT (and did not realize that MT hates my keyboard). I was talking in this discussion aout whether Gollum was a hobbit or not, and only one person, Finrod, now Curufinwë, was the only one who even replyed to what I wrote. Even then, she said something along the lines of "Yeah, but thats kind of what I said, as I said 'this', and you said 'that'. do you see my point?"*
A few days later, I looked in my book, and found several refrences to gollum being a hobbit, in my opinion, and I posted again in that thead. As far as I know, that second post was never replyed to, or if it was, it was at least a month later, when I had stopped looking.

Other people may have similar experiences, or they may just be talking out of their [] , saying, 'yeah, they're mean up there' because thats what other people are saying.

However, I think that I was for a while becoming something like Adanedhel's apprentice for a while, as I never came out of the green dragon, except for very few things, usually tht I was invited to.
I joined the Kith and Kin in the Prancing Pony around March I believe, and it was only then that I actually became really involved in the PP.

I feel that writing your own work is just as good as talking about someone elses, even someone like Tolkien.

* I meant no disrespect to Curufinwë at any point. she is a good MT-friend of mine.

From: lets just say I have a ton of washing to do... | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Roll of Honor Ecthelion of the Fountain
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quote:
I feel that writing your own work is just as good as talking about someone elses, even someone like Tolkien.
yes, but i do believe that the site was set up to talk about tolkien.
From: seattle, wa, usa | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Roll of Honor Marcho Blackwood - MSS
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Citizen # 270

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Ecthelion of the Fountain – I think made a good point. Often someone posts a comment in a literary forum that is 1) already been posted, 2) Starts a New Topic that already exists, or 3) Has totally missed the point of the thread.

The response could be to start a flame war with the person. The other is to ignore the post. I think the later is much more mature, but perhaps a PM to the individual would be in order. Too often a comment in a thread is taken as a slam or insult when the person was just trying to help. I have been known to make on occasional post referring others to existing posts. For some reason people feel stupid when someone points them to another thread where a topic has been in discussion for a long time.

I have been posting less frequently in the literary forums for a fairly simple reason. Most of them are beyond my reading. I do very well in The Hobbit, can hold my own in LotR, but have read very little of the HoME and don’t know the Silm very well. Depending on how someone looks at it, either fortunately or un-fortunately, I have a life and it prevents me from reading much. Other activities such as my Martial Arts and Karate, my House Remodel and my family keep me from having time to contribute to Tolkien related discussions. But I don’t want to avoid MT, so I spend more time sharing my activities with others in the Pony and the other Inns. Perhaps in a couple months or so, Tolkien will move further up the list of priorities.

Until then, I try not to be harsh or mean and I certainly aren’t going to let what someone says make me leave.

Have a great life everyone! Enjoy it and don’t get bent out of shape by a few words typed by an anonymous individual at a keyboard in an unknown place!

[ 07-30-2003, 03:24 PM: Message edited by: Marcho Blackwood - MSS ]

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Marcho Blackwood, MSS - #16 Brookshade Close - Bindbale, North Farthing, The Shire
1st Winner Mahanaxar's Boy Howdy of Approval with 2 Bronze Stars (3rd Award) & Balrog Cluster with Laurel.
King of Grammar with Queen SSA
Sass this hoopy hobbit frood who really knows where his towel is!

From: Bindbale, North Farthing | Registered: Feb 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Roll of Honor Deraj the Plaid
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Citizen # 1351

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I first joined MT for the lit discussion and inside movie news!

*sigh*

My last two attempts at literary discussion have gone nowhere! I tried to join and/or continue discussions on Tolkien's Mr. Bliss and Roverandom to no avail.

I read them both just a few months ago, and I was excited about them. But either no one else had read them or wanted to talk about it! Gah! I don't want it to be that way! But that's the way it is....

Plodding along,

Deraj

From: Del-Mar-Va | Registered: Dec 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Eleanor Gamgee
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I realize that Minas Tirith.com is a site devoted to Tolkien's works, and I appreciate the maturity of most of its citizens. True, there are some people who only stay in the Current Film Production thread and never go to the literary forums, but there's nothing to be done about that. Unless you wanted to give every citizen and applicant a background check and quiz them on the books. (I wonder how I'd do on such a test? Hmm...)

And as for troublemakers, there's nothing to be done about them. On every site, on every forum, there will always be trolls with nothing nice to say. Might as well just read over their posts instead of getting mad about them.

In all honesty, Minas Tirith is the most mature, most literate forum I have ever come across. Anger is usually dealt with in a responsible manner, and newbies aren't as looked down on as much as other places. I have always felt very welcome at Minas Tirith, and even though I seldom venture north, I'm glad to be a citizen of this city.

EDIT: If I may ask, if MT is supposed to be a Tolkien-centered site, and if we're flaming people for posting solely in the southern forums, why are those boards there in the first place?? People have a right to not participate in the literary discussions.

[ 07-30-2003, 08:43 PM: Message edited by: Eleanor Gamgee ]

From: St. Louis... well, close enough. | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Roll of Honor Éomer
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Okay, when I first started posting here, I spent almost all of my time in the Green Dragon. Then I started getting into stuff at the Pony. I'd been reading the lit forums and making posts here and there occasionally, but at the time felt I wasn't ready to really post there as I hadn't finished reading the books yet. Before I drifted away I was getting more into the lit forums, since I had finished LOTR, the Silmarillion, and a few other things. I was really getting into everything.

And then I don't really know what happened. I just lost interest in discussing Tolkien, for some reason. I still drop by here on occasion to read up on threads and stuff but I never feel inclined to post. It's certainly not because of anyone here or the quality of the board itself, I think it's just a personal thing because I've had pretty much the same attitude about everything this summer.

Anyway, I'm sorry that you had to post this thread WGW, and I hope that everyone can work this whole thing out. This is a great place, and hopefully I'll get back into the swing of things again, soon...

From: Serenity | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
White Gold Wielder
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That's just part of the cycles everyone goes through. Perhaps you will find yourself re-reading Tolkien someday and it will spark your interest again. I don't worry too much about it. It's the fights that I've been most worried about.
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Roll of Honor Curufin the Crafty
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I think your last suggestion is the one we really need, Athene.

I've kind of been lurking since I returned to camp, partially because I've been terribly busy readjusting to civilization, and partially because I don't want to get involved in any of these fights. I'm not in the mood for fighting and bickering, and I was sad to hear of the fights all summer through letters and in phone calls during my short time home.

What's wrong? What happened?

When I left, this was the loving, caring place that it always was, and now...maybe people aren't fighting anymore (openly, anyway), but I can still feel the tension, even though I really don't know what the fights were about to start with.

MT has always been like a family to me, and I hate seeing everyone fight. Where is the love we always bragged about? Fighting is part of a relationship, that has to be accepted. People fight. But true friends also forgive and move on. Can't we try to do that? To be true friends to each other?

I hate the fighting. That isn't what I'm at MT for.

I'm not leaving MT anytime in the near future. I still think it's the best Tolkien site out there, despite the terrible fighting that seems to have taken place this summer. I just wish those who seem hellbent on disturbing the peace and bickering with each other would grow up!

From: Wherever people are oppressed... | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Aylah the Wind Sister
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quote:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I feel that writing your own work is just as good as talking about someone elses, even someone like Tolkien.
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yes, but i do believe that the site was set up to talk about tolkien.

I know that, I was just stating my opinion Ecthelion, like I said.
If I may say so, I believe that that is the kind of thing that is starting fights in the first place, someone not taking a comment about what they the way the commentor meant it to be heard.

quote:
Until then, I try not to be harsh or mean and I certainly aren’t going to let what someone says make me leave.
I think everyone needs an attitude like Marcho's. It's just a message board! It should be taken seriously to some extent, but I think people shouldn't treat it as if anything said here will damage their reputation with other people. Also, I don't think constant quips about how people write or what they think is necessary either.

I second (third?) Athene's post/idea.

From: lets just say I have a ton of washing to do... | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Aragorn_croatia
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Erchamion, I felt the exact same thing - kinda drifted away with all the school and my "real" life obligations and problems.

Not to mention that my sister stole LotR and Hobbit from me though...pesky sister.

From: Atlanta, GA / South Kent, CT | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Roll of Honor Mahanaxar
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Citizen # 1540

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I have the same problem Deraj does. When I first joined this community I new it was a literary forum. In fact, that's where I posted first. Whenever I did/do, though, I always got/get either no responses or links to where the topic has been discussed previously. I can't help but think that the literary forums are merely a means to the end of accumulating information in the "Library of Minas Tirith". The whole point of a message board is interaction! Frankly it's rather discouraging to try and start a serious literary topic only to have people come in and say "This has already been discussed before, follow this link."

Just my two cents.

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I win!

From: pants | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Roll of Honor Wandering Tuor
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 1685

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That kind of comment might be appropriate if you started a new thread on a topic that had been dicussed in an existing thread; i.e., you could take it to mean "good post, but put it in [the existing thread]". Otherwise, I agree that it's not very helpful, as most possible Tolkien topics have probably been discussed here at one point or another.

I also think that people who only post in inns and/or the Pony have nothing to apologize for. This board has both lit forums and inns, and anyone should be free to use one or both.

As far as posts being ignored -- there's a summer slowdown going on I think. No big deal.

[ 08-01-2003, 08:42 AM: Message edited by: Wandering Tuor ]

From: My place | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
GLAMDRING The Foe Hammer
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Citizen # 3303

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quote:
As far as posts being ignored -- there's a summer slowdown going on I think. No big deal.
I, for one, have been out of town or not at a computer for a few weeks now and have had very little time to post or even read many posts. This is typical for me (and others) during the summer months.

I also have had quite a busy time lately and have not had much time to think about Tolkien-related issues so my posts in the lit forums have really declined of late.

I will say that it is somewhat less enjoyable to learn that almost every topic I/we can come up with has already been discussed ad-nauseum as it does make it tough for new people to participate in the discussion.

I used to frequent a battleship discussion board (I love ships!) but it got to be very boring when new people would post the same scenarios over and over again (I hardly ever go there anymore) so I fully understand the older folks view that it has already been discussed so come up with something new.

I'm not sure how to rectify the situation, just adding my 2-cents.

From: Cary NC | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
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