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Minas Tirith Forums » Minas Tirith Site Announcements » Ideal Minas Tirith Citizen (Page 7)
Author Topic: Ideal Minas Tirith Citizen
Roll of Honor Swift Asfaloth
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 1435

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Others have posted inane or easily answered "lazy" questions; what seemed to bother many citizens about LacrosseGrl's question was the motivation behind it, rather than the stupidity of the question itself. She was cheating, and she showed no interest in Tolkien's work beyond that required to gain extra credit.

I don't think you should be so hard on yourself, Finrod, since your intentions and motivations were noble and kind. Other MT citizens may not have agreed with your decision to answer the offending party, and several responded in quite a different manner. I give more weight to the motivations than to the actual words in this case. []

From: Calenardhon | Registered: Dec 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Roll of Honor Neytari Took-Baggins
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 490

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Then we should have just ignored her completly.
From: California ainrofilaC | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Roll of Honor Swift Asfaloth
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 1435

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That's what *I* chose to do, Neytari , but I'm not trying to tell anyone what they should do, or whether their motivations are "right" or "wrong", in the context of this forum. I think that either answering the question politely, as Finrod did, or referring the person to the library, is a response motivated by kind intentions, and I think that a person who responds in such a manner shouldn't feel guilty or need to apologize. Those are just my opinions. In the context of Internet interactions alone, I'm usually motivated by benign self-interest, and my inclination is to ignore people like LacrosseGrl and Mirithan. Others are motivated differently, and I don't believe that I can or should change their motivations. I felt that Mirithan was motivated by attention-seeking, and chose to ignore her. Others (SSA, Snowman, Miz Lobelia) have kinder, less selfish intentions, and tried to be nice to her or to suggest ways for her to fit into the MT community and thus avoid being flamed. Some people chose to leave MT in disgust, and others responded by flaming. There will always be those that flame; they're the kind of people I wouldn't care to meet in RL. I don't tolerate unkind petty behavior in the context of work, but then that's my "turf", I bring in the money, and I call the shots. Sometimes I have young college or even high school students working in my lab, and I won't have them berated for asking naive questions. Attention-seeking behavior and cheating or lying are behaviors I reward with dismissal. This is WGW's "turf", so I'll go with his decisions on such matters.
From: Calenardhon | Registered: Dec 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Jozen of Dagorlad
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 2443
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I have a couple propositions for you all.
There are two main points that have and must be noted. LacrosseGrl, though not entirely innocent, was indeed targeted unfairly by individuals who at the time flamed far too harshly. A cap on “flame intensity” could be set into motion. On the other hand LacrosseGrl having at least some knowledge of the internet, by her ability to have found Minas Tirith as proof, entered with knowledge of the rather “serious” atmosphere MT may sometime possess. In one of her posts she even pointed out that she was aware that many of us “live” here. (Note: Those were not her exact words) I believe that an adjustment could be added to the FAQ list or the agreement terms regarding this matter.
Are there any suggestions as to how these might be worded?

-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
The night has thousand eyes, and the day but one;
Yet the light of the bright world dies with the dying sun.
The mind has a thousand eyes, and the heart but one;
Yet the light of a whole life dies when love is done.

From: ~*Marshes of the Dead*~ | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Roll of Honor The Mighty Müsnud
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 720

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quote:
Situations like that are sticky, and I think it is very hard to know the right way to act. The worst mistake was made by LacrosseGirl, by posting in the first place, then probably by me, for answering it, then by everyone else for insulting and starting the flame war.
Please don't feel that this is your mistake, Finrod. I feel that your response did absolutely nothing to escalate the the situation with LacrosseGrl. And although I don't agree with giving out the answers, your post in general was fairly benign.

Neytari mentioned that perhaps we should adopt a different course of action to follow should this happen again, that we should "help them to help themselves." As you can see from this link, it already is occurring again. A student asks for a theme, and rather than help the student to develop his own ideas, we just hand him a plethora of different themes to choose from.

I don't know about you guys, but I'm tired of people coming here and using this place as a "Get-out-of-reading-the-book Free Card."

Oh, and BTW, if anybody comes here asking for help answering their extra credit trivia questions for The Hobbit, please don't indulge him/her. He/she might just be one of my students (and they're only supposed to use the book)... []

From: Wichita, KS, USA | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Roll of Honor TheGentleman
Captain of the Newbie Guard
Citizen # 718

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Now would seem a good time to re-spark this debate...
From: London, England | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Roll of Honor Lugbúrz
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 867

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It is sad that such filth exists here. I enter the literary discussions after a long time and do not plan to go there for much time to come.

http://www.minastirith.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=3;t=000160#000022

There is a middle path that we need to see here, complete freedom in posting and intrusive moderation are two extremes.

Can nobody see this except for me? For sites seem to be either one or the other.

I'm sorry to say, but I don't think this thread has spread in any extent to the citizens here. Execution is what is needed, not legislation.

From: Middangeard | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
White Gold Wielder
Steward of Minas Tirith
Citizen # 2

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Where’s the filth?

Did I miss something here? Did someone delete their filthy post?

Or, as I suspect, is your point is that topics in the literary forums shouldn’t go off on tangents. Talk about overreacting! Newer members get into conversations wherever they feel the urge. Sometimes it’s a problem, other times it’s not. What is certain is that they are getting comfortable with Minas Tirith and are beginning to be a part of the community. Once they ‘grow up’, they will take a more elegant approach to conversation, from how they are formed to where they take place. Until then, the veterans must make peace with the fact that there will always be newbies and their actions will always inflict some chaos. The good and bad of this fact is another debate.

If you choose to stay away from the literary forums, then you are part of the problem. All it takes to get topics back on track is a single good post. If you refuse to try to keep topics you care about alive, then you have lost your right to complain.

If anyone loved a thread so much that they felt a few off-topic posts destroyed it, I would be glad to remove them once it was brought to my attention. I refuse to be told to anticipate everyone’s feelings about each individual post and judge whether it should be removed or not. Do you have any more concrete suggestions besides ‘execution’?

Do you still feel the best approach to declaring your feelings on this matter was to throw down the gauntlet to me by complaining about ‘filth’ at Minas Tirith? I have to respond to outrageous allegations, although my answers rarely please the ones who make them. Such grandstanding wastes my time. Honestly, anyone who cares for Minas Tirith would be concerned about exploiting that precious commodity.

From: Chicago | Registered: May 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Roll of Honor Lugbúrz
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 867

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I'm sorry if this was a waste of time, WGW. We disagree on these issues and I'm finding avenues to vent this.

If I am to bear with this, then please bear with me too. A balance will be reached.

Yes, I would like those posts to be deleted, but do I have the right to claim this? Is this part of how things are to operate?

From: Middangeard | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Roll of Honor Lugbúrz
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 867

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I'm sorry I had to leave midway... to write a little more, I don't think the issue was giving newcomers a chance to grow, that can always be done and I think being kind is definitely on the top of the list of ideals we have here.

The issue is more of seeing what the Steward stands for. Does he think it is okay for taliterary talk to turn into a discussion like that.

People look up to their leader and will do as he feels. I think your busy schedule will be mistaken for approval.

From: Middangeard | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
White Gold Wielder
Steward of Minas Tirith
Citizen # 2

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I will comply with all reasonable requests.

I agree that the conversation in question is derivative to say the least.

My point about newbies needing encouragement to get involved and actually make posts still stands. However, once those posts are made I feel the battle has been won and that encouragement is no longer needed. The posts could easily be removed without dampening their enthusiasm. In fact, due to the scatterbrain quality of most newbies, I doubt they would even notice.

Plus, having your posts deleted is often the splash of cold water in the face that most newbies need to become a responsible poster. The burned hand teaches best, as young Pippen discovered.

The point is, can I be asked to monitor every thread and keep it perfectly on-topic? I made it clear above that I don't think this is a good idea. But how long do I allow an off-topic thread to stay off-topic? The answer to that should be determined by the other participants of the thread. I someone cares, then I care. If the thread is dead or was a duplicate in the first place, why should I bother? If a thread falls in the woods and no one cares if it goes off-topic, uh, anyway you get the point. []

And I don't mind putting up with you. You're not heavy, you're my Lugbúrz.

From: Chicago | Registered: May 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Roll of Honor Lugbúrz
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 867

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Thank you for your wise words, WGW.

I agree that you donot have time to edit each thread, that is why I'm impressing upon the idea of clarifying your positions in a few places, by means of a few curt actions. The sowrd can teach discipline and compassion better than a sceptre when weilded by one who is wise.

People will notice, and they will follow. After that if they don't, they are being rude, and no longer ignorant. Citizens, including myself can humbly aid and correct new people and also report such threads to you, but that is not to take away your thunder, as the Steward, who represents what is right.

They simply must know that they get away with things on MT only because you cannot be expected to deal with everything, and they have to learn to be responsible. Let them beware that if you are upon them, their flame will be extinguished.

I'm glad I can express myself when I feel like, this community stands for that kind of open discussion, and you above all stand for healthy freedom.

That deserves respect from all who use it.

From: Middangeard | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Roll of Honor Thorin
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 816
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My opinion:

The ideal Minas Tirith citizen loves the works of J.R.R. Tolkien, and this love is apparent in her posts.

The ideal Minas Tirith citizen freely offers his knowledge and questions about Tolkien and his works.

The ideal Minas Tirith citizen posts when her input could be of interest, and does not post or create threads unnecessarily.

The ideal Minas Tirith citizen does not participate in trifling activities such as Inns or chat threads, or engage in partisan behaviour such as religious or political arguments to the neglect of all else.

The ideal Minas Tirith citizen does not engage in deception, personal attacks, deliberate antagonization, or post with the main purpose of getting a negative reaction.

The ideal Minas Tirith citizen uses correct spelling and grammar.

The ideal Minas Tirith citizen gives financial support to the maintenance and upkeep of the site if possible.

The ideal Minas Tirith citizen participates in keeping order in the City, but realizes her bounds and does not pretend to authority that she does not have.

The ideal Minas Tirith citizen attempts to be warm, friendly, and kind.

The ideal Minas Tirith citizen has a sense of humour.

From: Helsinki | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Roll of Honor Neytari Took-Baggins
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 490

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quote:
The ideal Minas Tirith citizen does not participate in trifling activities such as Inns or chat threads, or engage in partisan behaviour such as religious or political arguments to the neglect of all else.
quote:
The ideal Minas Tirith citizen has a sense of humour.
You've contradicted yourself []
From: California ainrofilaC | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Roll of Honor Braeden Fireheart
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 1953

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I believe the "to the neglect of all else" part in the first quote is of high importance, especially if one has neglected their sense of humour. []
From: Mnemosyne's loft | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Joe Stupid KingofBelfalas
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 5059
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I do not fit any, I am not a girl. []
From: Philly | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Roll of Honor Thorin
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 816
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We know that you don't fit any. []
From: Helsinki | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Roll of Honor Sauron's Secret Agent
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 1891

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You purists need to re-examine your attitudes to the rest of the human race.

How can we post in the Lits, when every time we do we are told: "Hey, we flogged this topic to death *here*"?

I gave up long ago. I joined MT to talk about Tolkien's works, but apparently anything I have to say is redundant. When I did post in the Lits, almost every post I made was ignored.

I say to you people what I say to my students: Every reader has a different approach to a work of literature. If you can find evidence in the text for your interpretation, then it is valid. If there are 5 million readers, there are 5 million perfectly valid responses.

You Lits people don't work like this, and so I don't post. I would love to, but I'm tired of being either dissed or totally ignored. Usually the latter.

But hey, my profession is teaching English Literature. What the f**k do I know?

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Roll of Honor Thorin
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 816
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Calm down. No need for freak-outs. My intention wasn't to start any fights, even though this thread has had it's share. Feel free to yell at me by PM if you feel a need - I just erased them all, so I have an open PM box.
From: Helsinki | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Roll of Honor Sauron's Secret Agent
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 1891

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I am not freaking out. I am expressing thoughts felt by myself and a number of other citizens with whom I have discussed this problem by PM.

Nobody has the definitive answer to any literary question - including JRRT himself. He was certainly unaware of the many different ways in which his works could be interpreted.

If the evidence can be found in the text, then the interpretation is valid. Nothing that is written as fiction is set in stone.

Speculation is just that. And anyone can speculate. Well, not on MT, but they can anywhere else.

If you and your like deplore the death of the Lits (which you should, because they are virtually dead), then you have only yourselves to blame.

If everything has indeed been discussed to death (which I doubt) then the Lits are, by definition, dead.

If the "purists" refuse to allow new citizens to discuss old topics, then the Lits are dead.

We can read, but we can't post without being attacked - so the Lits are dead.

Long live the Pony and the Inns - otherwise MT is dead.

If you doubt my words, look how many citizens no longer, or very rarely, post here. There are other boards where the members are far more open minded. We are all either there, or not on Tolkien boards at all.

As an aside, I posted in one of your Lit threads earlier, but my post was totally ignored by you. Why should I bother in the future? IMO, a threadmaster should appreciate and acknowledge the posts of others in his/her thread.

edit:

quote:
this thread has had it's share
Yeah, purist. []

[ 11-25-2005, 11:13 AM: Message edited by: Sauron's Secret Agent ]

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Joe Stupid KingofBelfalas
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 5059
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Yeah I agree with SSA I rarely post in the Lit threads unless they are the trivia's, for fear of getting a new [] torn in me. []

[ 11-25-2005, 11:28 AM: Message edited by: Joe Stupid KingofBelfalas ]

From: Philly | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Roll of Honor Sauron's Secret Agent
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 1891

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Thanks, Joe. []

There are Tolkien boards that are kind, but this ain't one of them. They've said it all. []

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Joe Stupid KingofBelfalas
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 5059
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Also everytime I go to start a new thread somebody searches day and night to see if that topic is discussed, then the try to act like complete @$$h*les.
From: Philly | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Roll of Honor Thorin
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 816
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quote:
It is thy duty to observe and without being disturbed or showing anger towards those who are angry with thee to go on thy way and finish that which is set before thee.
Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

[]

From: Helsinki | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Roll of Honor Sauron's Secret Agent
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 1891

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Crap.

You can't answer, so you take refuge in quotes which can be interpreted in many ways. There are so many like you here. Why do you think we are all defecting to other boards?

Yes, you will like that, won't you? But one day you will find yourself very lonely.

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