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Minas Tirith Forums » Minas Tirith Site Announcements » Ideal Minas Tirith Citizen (Page 6)
Author Topic: Ideal Minas Tirith Citizen
Roll of Honor TheGentleman
Captain of the Newbie Guard
Citizen # 718

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An interesting idea, but I fear that something like that would further segregate new citizens from the masses, offering a further hindrence to their ideal integration into the community. At least the NBCH offers a place for new members to show their face and meet the older more experienced members?
From: London, England | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Roll of Honor Neytari Took-Baggins
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 490

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Isolation isnt gonna work []
From: California ainrofilaC | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Amarth
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 2333

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Take the idea as no offense.
I didn't think that the CH should be deleted at all, I like the place myself, but that could be another Inn that newbies could mix into when then felt sure enough of themselves.
It might actually be a waste of space but many people are of course making up their own threads, I do not need to remind anyone of the chaos that happened because of Gollum starting his own newbie thread do I?

Of course you can say that it's better to have them make their own threads so that they get you used to it and everything, but maybe it would be better to have people experimenting in the Pony, whilst welcoming each other in the Floating Log.

This would mean that instead of having people makin their own threads, which little by little will be cause space problems, we could have them posting in one unique thread for welcoming newbies.

Other places like the Pony cause more space problems and so this isn't really thought of as a matter.

~ Amarth

[ 10-17-2002, 07:51 AM: Message edited by: Amarth ]

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Roll of Honor Curufin the Crafty
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 2540

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I think that your idea certainly has merit, Amarth, but a problem I see with it is that it may be very difficult to welcome newbies if they all post in one thread.

We may not notice when they start, and may not be able to answer important questions right away.

It might also be a bit overwhelming for newbies to have to go to page sixty (for example) of a very large thread in order to introduce themselves. I know when I joined tORC's boards, the reason I never went back was because of the overwhelmingly large numbers of posts in each of the newbie threads that I had to sort through. I had an enormous headache very soon! The reason I stayed here was that it felt more "homey," more personal, and I think a lot of that was because of the organization of The Floating Log.

~Finrod

[ 10-17-2002, 08:01 AM: Message edited by: Finrod ]

From: Wherever people are oppressed... | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Amarth
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 2333

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Very true.
The opening page could have links of all important threads such as All Newbies Questions Answered by TG and the FAQs of course.

I would expect this thread to be 60 pages long, updated maybe every 20 pages.
And no saving excuse, most Inns reach page 60 because they use the'I have to save it' excuse.
Which works usually, but if you say it and you're at page 30 and still using the excuse at page 50 well, it's going to be more obvious then it usually is.

Of course you would need someone that could do that without any problem and can handle newbies when it comes to crisis.
Like TG.
Only making an example!!

~ Amarth

From: West Ando | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Jozen of Dagorlad
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 2443
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There is one slight hitch in your... our plan though. Notice who all has posted/read this thread thus far… there aren't an awful lot of newbies. Only the more mature and wisest of citizens even bother with threads like this one. We need to find a way to get the newbies in on our plot as well!

PS- Three cheers to you all for coming up with this thread. It's a marvelous idea! (An extra cheer for our great Stewart)

-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
The night has thousand eyes, and the day but one;
Yet the light of the bright world dies with the dying sun.
The mind has a thousand eyes, and the heart but one;
Yet the light of a whole life dies when love is done.

From: ~*Marshes of the Dead*~ | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Roll of Honor Lugbúrz
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 867

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Well, seeing that the four posts before this are by newer members, I don't think we're doing very badly in that department. The point is people must want to contribute to the site if they post here, and also have something worthwhile to say.

------

I do not want to re-enter the discussion, but I'm curious to know how an Ideal Citizen would have dealt with a thread that recently appeared in the LOTR forum, started by a LacrosseGrl.

Although I feel that the thread in question should be deleted and some action taken against the starter for use of unacceptable language, I am also hoping that it lingers awhile so that I get some responses from members here.

Lug

From: Middangeard | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Roll of Honor Curufin the Crafty
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 2540

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I knew that thread would cause problems the very first time I read it.

I figured the best way to deal with it would be to answer her question simply, in the hopes that she would then go away.

Unfortunately, it appears that many people felt the need to berate her, etc., and it turned into a rather ugly flame war.

I'm not saying that I like what she posted, but would it have been so difficult for to have simply ignored it, and let WGW delete it, instead of throwing wood on the fire?

[ 11-01-2002, 03:25 PM: Message edited by: Finrod ]

From: Wherever people are oppressed... | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Jozen of Dagorlad
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 2443
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Lugbúrz is correct. LacrosseGrl's thread is a disgrace it the Literary Forum! WGW Please delete it!! Leaving the thread up is only instigating more foul language and violence!

-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
The night has thousand eyes, and the day but one;
Yet the light of the bright world dies with the dying sun.
The mind has a thousand eyes, and the heart but one;
Yet the light of a whole life dies when love is done.

From: ~*Marshes of the Dead*~ | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
White Gold Wielder
Steward of Minas Tirith
Citizen # 2

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Thanks for bringing my attention to this thread. I hadn't noticed it.

Many people made some bad choices in responding to that thread. I am closing it until I can warn the hooligans about their actions. Then I'll delete it.

<Sigh>

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Roll of Honor Lugbúrz
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 867

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quote:
Imbëar ~ stop being a follower
[]

On second thoughts, this should be added to the funny pages.

*bows to Imbëar for having tried his hardest to elicit such a response*

Finrod,

I understand your point, but as I have always maintained, there has to be a limit. I will not repeat myself again, so all I will say is that your method of handling the thread was indeed commendable.

Lug

From: Middangeard | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Roll of Honor Lugbúrz
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 867

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Thanks WGW
From: Middangeard | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Roll of Honor Curufin the Crafty
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 2540

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Yes, I about blew Mt. Dew through my nose when I read about Imbëar being a follower.

~~~~~~~

Lug, I agree with you, to an extent. I myself was angered by LacrosseGirl's post, for so many reasons that do not need explaining here. There does need to be a limit to what is tolerated here, and people should know better than to come to a serious website and ask questions about something they don't care about for extra credit.

Nonetheless, I strongly feel that flaming her and calling her stupid was the wrong reaction. Perhaps something should have been said to her, but I don't think that flagrantly insulting her was the right way to go.

From: Wherever people are oppressed... | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Roll of Honor The Mighty Müsnud
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 720

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quote:
people should know better than to come to a serious website and ask questions about something they don't care about for extra credit.
They should. But unfortunately, as is too often the case, they don't.

I think the Ideal Citizen would respond to LacrosseGrl's thread in one of two ways: (1)ignore it completely and let it float harmlessly into the nether-regions of the LOTR Forum, or (2) kindly direct the thread-starter to the appropriate forum (without giving her the answer she was seeking).
That's one thing that I've noticed all too often, non-intellectuals having their behavior reinforced by receiving the answers to certain questions online. I see this attempted in my classroom from time to time: students ask other students for the answers to a quiz. Even though this student is asking the question to strangers online rather than her fellow students, it still boils down to one thing. She's cheating. She's trying to get credit for work that she hasn't done. I believe the Ideal MT Citizen would refrain from reinforcing this type of behavior (especially in the wrong forum).

The Ideal Citizen should also be cognizant of the possible effects of their words. Some people may not care if they're called "stupid." Unfortunately, calling LacrosseGrl "stupid" seemed to push an unpleasant button that set her off. Tolerance and kind words should be the goal of the Ideal Citizen (whether the recipient deserves the tolerance or not).

I found LacrosseGrl's opening statement to be quite interesting as well:

quote:
Im really sorry about this I asked someplace else and u guys are so much nicer here um sorry please help ineed all the extra credit i can get i would really appriciate it.
Apparently, she had been treated well here before. Perhaps it was the irony of the answer to the question this time ("Minas Tirith") that pushed people over the edge. But this leads me to my final thought. The Ideal Citizen should always review his post first and ask himself, "Is this appropriate?"
From: Wichita, KS, USA | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Roll of Honor Curufin the Crafty
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 2540

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Mus,

You do have a point, and I truly did repent answering the question upon further thought, but I did it with the best intentions.

She was cheating, and I did feel bad afterwards about helping her along, but I guess I was just hoping that answering it quickly would just make her go away and somehow prevent a flame-war, which was more important to me than whether someone I didn't know got extra-credit.

Situations like that are sticky, and I think it is very hard to know the right way to act. The worst mistake was made by LacrosseGirl, by posting in the first place, then probably by me, for answering it, then by everyone else for insulting and starting the flame war.

From: Wherever people are oppressed... | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Roll of Honor Thorin
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 816
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LacrossGirl (or however you spell it) did post before, and had an equally simple question. Previously she didn't get quite such a response. For some reason, some items really set people off, and others do not. I think a poster's citizen number may have something to do with it. Both Telperion and I recently posted some um, er, simple questions that probably would have earned us a flaming to remember if we hadn't been here for a while. It's almost like hazing for newer citizens.

LacrossGirl's earlier post:
http://www.minastirith.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=001321

From: Helsinki | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Roll of Honor Marcho Blackwood - MSS
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 270

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I don't think the fact that LaCrosseGirl asked the question bothered me as much as the manner in which it was asked. She was fairly apologetic about asking the question, and realized it would be a bit of a no brainer for most of us.

The grammar/language was pretty poor. But at the same time, here is a LotR 'virgin' that we have suceeded in totally flaming and turning off to the world of Tolkien.

As far as whether she is 'cheating' by asking a question here is very open to interpretation. She said exactly what she wanted it for. She specified that it was for extra credit. I doubt that the instructor provided any restrictions as to how they found out the answer, only that they find it. When I have questions, I go to the internet and I use forums, mailing lists and web sites to get answers.

To a certain extent, it is a compliment to this site that it is considered authoritative enough to provide an answer such as this, even if it is to a simple question. And we showed up on the radar screen when someone is looking for an answer to a Tolkien question! Kudos to all for having created that image.

But let us not forget that we can only survive and grow if we get in new citizens and introduce others to the wonderful world of Tolkien, and not chase them off.

Edited to correct a spelling error and to note that I have sent a personal message to LacrossGirl apologizing for the poor way in which she was treated. I wouldn't blame her for never coming back!

[ 11-04-2002, 09:16 AM: Message edited by: Marcho Blackwood - MSS ]

From: Bindbale, North Farthing | Registered: Feb 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Roll of Honor Kaladir
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 2695

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As a relative newbie myself, I just want to say that I have felt at home quite quickly here, and am not worried about posting on the different sites. I think on the whole the boards are all really good and there are places for everyone and every discussion... I think that sometimes these boards get more problems on other sites due to the fact there may only be one or two, rather than over 6 all on different topics.
From: Glasgow | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Jozen of Dagorlad
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 2443
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Now that I read further into the thread, the one's to blame are those three or four who thought it would be bright to degrade her for asking so simple a question.
Is not the only stupid question one to which you already know the answer? I seriously doubt that LacrosseGrl knew the answer was Minas Tirith and should not be strangled for asking. The individuals who should be ashamed are those who refrained from acting without the least bit of decorum. We all must be mind full of our manners, even myself.

-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
The night has thousand eyes, and the day but one;
Yet the light of the bright world dies with the dying sun.
The mind has a thousand eyes, and the heart but one;
Yet the light of a whole life dies when love is done.

From: ~*Marshes of the Dead*~ | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Anoren Anarinwa
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 2435

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I'm still a newbie too, so I hope you don't mind me saying my worth. I really have to agree with Jozen. Beside the fact that she was "cheating", she didn't deserve all the telling off that she got. She even said she was sorry for asking another question.

Why couldn't someone have said, "Sorry, but that's cheating and we can't tell you," or tell her the answer instead of telling her how stupid she is?

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Roll of Honor Mandin
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 415

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Marcho:
quote:
But at the same time, here is a LotR 'virgin' that we have suceeded in totally flaming and turning off to the world of Tolkien.
LacrosseGrl is not a LotR 'virgin' with any laudible interest in Tolkien whatsoever. Her interest in Tolkien lies only as long as the old fellow brings her extra credit points. And even then, she will not watch the movie or open up the books (God forbid), but she must come here and ask it of us.
LacrosseGrl is not up to the caliber of almost every single newbie that has ever posted here. Her interests show nothing tolkienish, she has no greeting thread about how she is a newbie (a minor point, but it would at least suggest that she was here to be a part of our community), and every single post she has ever posted at MT (7) are in her two threads asking amazingly trivial questions. If she had any interest in MT or Tolkien beyond easy extra credit, we would at least have a hint of it in her posts. We don't.

So now we must decide: Should MT consider itself, not only a place where the books are discussed, but also where the questions are answered of people without any interest in them at all? If so, then yes, the flamings were definitely the acts of hooligans who were purposefully working against the purposes of Minas Tirith. If no to the above question, then the flamings were nothing more than a slight losing of temper by valuable citizens upon seeing a worthless citizen taking advantage of us.

The IDEAL Citizen does not slightly lose his temper...ever! He is always calm and collected and takes every word and weighs it in a sensitive balance. But there is no such thing as the IDEAL citizen, and while we can work towards it, we need not bash, be angry with, and call hooligans people who do momentarily lapse into a slight bit of flaming.

[ 11-04-2002, 01:23 PM: Message edited by: Mandin ]

From: Houston, Missouri | Registered: Mar 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Roll of Honor Curufin the Crafty
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 2540

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I find myself agreeing with everyone who has posted here, and that causes quite a dilemma for me.

As the thread was happening, I found myself reading it and empathizing with the posters, while at the same time hating the technique they were using to convey their feelings. On a personal level, I cannot condone flaming, and while their sentiments might have matched mine, I couldn't agree with what they were doing. I strongly believe that LacrosseGirl should not have been flamed as she was, no matter what "stupid" question she was asking, and no matter how inappropriate her question was.

On the other hand, there is no doubt that both LacrosseGirl's question and the style of her post were inappropriate. If she had even a passing interest in Tolkien, it would have been completely different, but she was doing it solely to get extra credit, and couldn't have cared less about the answer. And she was taking the easy way out. She could have found the answer almost as easily by going to the library, finding the book, and looking up "Boromir" in the index.

What would have been the right thing to do? I thought at first that I had done it, but the more I thought about it, the more I wondered if there was a correct response. None of us here are "ideal" citizens - the "ideal" is just that, and can never be achieved. I think the important thing to do is to learn from this, and perhaps start a dialogue on how to handle posts like LacrosseGirl's in the future.

From: Wherever people are oppressed... | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Roll of Honor Mandin
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 415

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Finrod, although at the moment I am, in a mild sense, anti flaming, I would not consider the following too beligerent to use addressing LacrossGrl. In fact, I think it would be appropraite, and sounds very much like something I might say to somebody (I am using your post's words to craft this):

LacrossGrl,
Your question is arguably stupid and unquestionably inappropriate. If you had even a passing interest in Tolkien, it would be obvious through your post. But as it is, we see you for what you are: A lazy student wanting easy extra credit. Yes, lazy! Open up the LotR at the library and the answers to both the questions you've asked at MT are easily answered. MT is for Tolkien fans, and it is blatantly obvious that you are not one, nor have a desire to become one.

I suppose the ultimately amiable citizen would do something more along the lines of.

LacrossGrl,
I don't think it is appropriate for you to be posting here, and it doesn't look like you are a Tolkien fan. I would love to talk with you via PM and perhaps spark an interest in Tolkien in you, so that maybe you'll read the books. For now, though, it is pretty much cheating to get your questions answered here. All you have to do is go to the library and use the index to look up Boromir.
See you later,

From: Houston, Missouri | Registered: Mar 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Roll of Honor Mandin
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 415

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Flaming is not all bad, but can be over done. Just jumping out and calling somebody stupid because they are stupid is rather undiplomatic, but hey! it is not incorrect, and, in my opinion, is not all that huge of an offense. However, my opinion does not much matter. WGW is decidedly ticked, and a decidedly ticked WGW decides what we will decidedly do supposing we want to stick around. At the moment, I do feel like sticking around, so I will disagree with WGW in this thread and bank the flames.
From: Houston, Missouri | Registered: Mar 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Roll of Honor Neytari Took-Baggins
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 490

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Maybe next time (cause odds are there WILL be a next time) something like this happens, we would do well to help them help themselves. Directing them to a library with Return of the King and the index, perhaps.
From: California ainrofilaC | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Create a New Topic  Create a New Poll  Reply to this Topic Minas Tirith Forums » Minas Tirith Site Announcements » Ideal Minas Tirith Citizen (Page 6)
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