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Minas Tirith Forums » Minas Tirith Site Announcements » Ideal Minas Tirith Citizen (Page 2)
Author Topic: Ideal Minas Tirith Citizen
Roll of Honor Mad Uncle Rupert
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 1148

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Thank you, Lady!

*bows*

I don't like when ten people crash on a new person for asking a question in the wrong forum, when one should be enough.

I've generally been easy on 'Newbies', but there might be something to be said of a good Zenith BANG once in a while. It may just be that I never got one, and am feeling slighted...

sniff

From: Playing softball with the Nazarenes | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Roll of Honor Sauron's Secret Agent
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 1891

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Another citizen admitting to having read all the above posts in full.

I would just like to add this: good manners will go a long way to creating a good atmosphere here. And if people won't take gentle hints about their behaviour, there comes a point when a firmer line has to be taken.

It reflects well on our excellent steward that he often leaves us to sort matters out among ourselves; his interventions are all the more devastating because they are rare. I admire your style, WGW.

And while others may not care too much about the standard of English used here, I state now that the battle continues for me; both in my professional life and here at MT I shall fight for the glory of the language that was also Tolkien's own chosen field of study.

*brandishes Shorter Oxford English Dictionary*

*collapses under the weight of said volumes*

[ 10-09-2002, 01:18 PM: Message edited by: Sauron's Secret Agent ]

-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
Queen of Grammar with King Marcho.

Two roads diverged in a wood, and I - I took the one less travelled by...

Beneath this mask there is more than flesh. Beneath this mask there is an idea, and ideas are bulletproof.

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Roll of Honor Galadriel Daughter of Ear
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 1690

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I too have read the above posts in full. I have one small thing to add the the wisdom of you all.

The ideal citizen would be a humble person as well. He/she would not bask in their apparent "wisdom," because in many cases what they think to be correct could very well be wrong. This goes along with the whole respect thing. Listen to others and make an attempt to contribute to the city, rather than to say or do things which will cut short the productivity and creativity of others who live here.

While I'm posting... WGW- Wonderful thread idea!

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Leire
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 1770

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Hey guys,

I have, indeed read the entire thread, and I should like to say excellent thread WGW! I apologize for starting a parallel thread; I had not noticed this one since I don't often visit the site announcement board. At the risk of sounding like a resounding gong, I like all of the ideas that have been forwarded so far on this thread about the ideal citizen and I can think of nothing to add to the ideal citizen.

However, I would like to add a suggestion that may be off topic. The thought occured to me while reading through the posts on discipline. In a normal society there are checks and balances on behavior, whether they be laws or simply "good taste" things that exist as unwritten laws. One of the most potent of these laws is that of social disgrace. Having thought about this idea some, and having read TG's post in "Ideal Citizen" I am not so sure about this suggestion, but perhaps with appropriate modification it could be useful . . .

Perhaps if we created a social structure outisde of the 200 post kicking you up to Gaurd and made it so people would wish to climb this social ladder of ranking. It could be dependent upon your total posts, behavior, and quality of posts and include 5 or 6 tiers of ranking. This would then be useful as a form of discipline, as WGW could hold demoting over peoples heads for minor infractions (retaining ultimate banning as the most severe). This is a sort of psychological game; it worked very well when I was younger and used to babysit my sisters. I would create a social hierarchy as a joke, and then promote or demote my younger siblings based upon their behavior; the funny thing was that they bought it!

Now, in retrospect, it probably worked mainly due to the fact that they were so young, and it would probably not be a very good form of discipline here since it would remove some individuality from MT (which TG pointed out is one of the best things about MT) and it would be a very subjective form of discipline. This is to say if the person did not care about their ranking it would not really do anything.

Just something to think about!

-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
With one wing broken and flapping like a kite and his blood issuing from many wounds Heartless the dragon took to the sky. He made it out to sea, nearly all the way to the last Elven ship, and as he crashed into the sea Heartless roared; “Take care . . . of Wretched, the last broodling, for me . . .” With a great crash Heartless gave up, and plummeted into the sea. A great steam arose where he had fallen, and the last Elven ship sailed safely into the mist.

Erth Relm, Part II

From: MO | Registered: Feb 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Roll of Honor Mad Uncle Rupert
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 1148

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My Dear Secret Agent, please be careful! No sense getting a hernia. My opinion is that had the designers of the English language had intended perfection, they would have designed a language that did not require such rupturing tomes! My suggestion is not that proper grammer and spelling is unimportant, just that imperfection is not a reason to malign. Suggesting correction is laudable, but improper syntax is no reason for judgement.

-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
Keep Minas Tirith Clean

"My dignity...she is gone..."

From: Playing softball with the Nazarenes | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Roll of Honor Sauron's Secret Agent
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 1891

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Dear Uncle - errors are one thing, consistent abuse of the language is another...

[]

-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
Queen of Grammar with King Marcho.

Two roads diverged in a wood, and I - I took the one less travelled by...

Beneath this mask there is more than flesh. Beneath this mask there is an idea, and ideas are bulletproof.

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Roll of Honor Mad Uncle Rupert
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 1148

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Then we are in agreement! Consistent abuse implies intent, and not a simple lack of proper education. As I said, improvement is the name of the game, and if someone chooses the path of evil, then the rats must be smoked out, neh?

-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
Keep Minas Tirith Clean

"My dignity...she is gone..."

From: Playing softball with the Nazarenes | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Roll of Honor Mandin
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 415

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Leire, the biggest flaw to your suggestions is that it would be impossible for WGW to do what you have suggested.

And relating to grammar, spelling, etc., I agree with SSA. I am by no means a spectacular grammarian, nor that great of a speller, but I put enough time and effort into my posts to be sure they are at least tolerable. Of course, that is only my opinion. Perhaps they are as intolerable as Ma...gulp, no names permitted here. []

From: Houston, Missouri | Registered: Mar 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Roll of Honor Sauron's Secret Agent
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 1891

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Lol - we all make mistakes, and The Laur is always only too happy to point mine out to me. []

But the total abandonment of upper case letters, and writing in text-ese, both really irritate me. The use of the shift key and of the 'preview post' button, not to mention that dear little feather, by some citizens would keep my blood pressure within bounds. []

-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
Queen of Grammar with King Marcho.

Two roads diverged in a wood, and I - I took the one less travelled by...

Beneath this mask there is more than flesh. Beneath this mask there is an idea, and ideas are bulletproof.

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Roll of Honor theWhiteLady
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 1409

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Leire: The thing about your idea is that it may breed contempt for those who are of a lower social status than oneself. It would also be a ton more work for WGW, if it was even possible. Barrow-downs has a system where you can 'rate' a member of the board; however, that may become a popularity contest. Anyway, I doubt it would do much to solve any major problems; those who treat MT with disrespect can hardly be expected to care about their rating...

SSA: Misspelling and atrocious grammer usage may be annoying, but I doubt much can be done about it besides politely asking the person to be more considerate. And while we are on the subject of abuse of the English language, I think that profanity would definitely qualify []

[ 10-10-2002, 06:35 PM: Message edited by: theWhiteLady ]

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Roll of Honor Mandin
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 415

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I would like to bring before you all the thought that perhaps respect for Minas Tirith is not a virtue practiced by the ideal citizen, but by all citizens, and that anybody who obviously, blatantly, specifically, grossly does not respect it should be banished.
And WGW should not ban them while wondering to himself whether or not he has violeted his beliefs relating to tolerance, but he should go to the nearest faucet and wash his hands, having thrown away yet another piece of trash.
I wonder, can WGW honestly look at all the citizens and say to himself: This one has added more value than he has detracted? If there is anyone who detracts more from the value of the city than he or she adds, it is, in my opinion - and this may tick WGW and maybe some others off - ridiculously stupid not to banish them.

edit: added italics and other words besides obviously to show that I am not quite as Robespierre like as MUR half jokingly suggests.

[ 10-10-2002, 10:27 PM: Message edited by: Mandin ]

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Roll of Honor Mad Uncle Rupert
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 1148

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I'd hate to live in a city where you were absolute Despot, Mandin!

"You, Serf! Haven't polished your doorstep, eh? OFF WITH HIS HEAD!!!"

The concept of designing an Ideal Citizen is an example for us all to strive for, not to say only Ideal Citizens should do this. Yes, of course all Citizens should respect the City. All Citizens in the Real World should pay their taxes on time. Many don't, but you don't execute them for it.

If the majority of Citizen behave themselves and attempt to be polite and respectful, I'd say things are going pretty well. There aren't many cities that do not have a red light district, or a slum. The fact that our's, The Pony, is relatively fun is a bonus.

From: Playing softball with the Nazarenes | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Roll of Honor Mandin
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 415

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MUR, if you step on dog sh*t while walking barefoot, do you clean it off your foot, or do you join your friends so that they can praise you for your tolerance?
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Roll of Honor Mad Uncle Rupert
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 1148

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No, I listen to Hendrix playing the Anthem, and love it for what it is.

People aren't feces, even the ones we don't like. You don't just jam a soul because they smell bad. Sure, some folks suck, and blow at the same time, and those who we all find intolerable get the Nod, in the end. But just because someone doesn't exactly fit the norm is no reason to send them to Molokai.

And I've repeatedly said that those who continuously defy the Rule should be banned. I guess you missed that. I just think that some let it get too far under their skin, and sometimes that can be too much as well.

I don't imply tolerate the intolerable. I imply tolerate the improvable. For who knows what part they may play?

From: Playing softball with the Nazarenes | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Roll of Honor Mandin
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 415

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"And I've repeatedly said that those who continuously defy the Rule should be banned."
Then, my young, insane dwarf friend, we are not disagreed in the least.

Edit: P.S. I suppose we disagree in some matters, but as long as you mean what you said about people who defy Rules, then you and I would banish the exact same citizens, and most likely neither more nor less.

[ 10-10-2002, 10:59 PM: Message edited by: Mandin ]

From: Houston, Missouri | Registered: Mar 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Roll of Honor Mad Uncle Rupert
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 1148

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As I said in a long half-forgotten Tribunate, if the decision comes to it, I'll bring the rope.
From: Playing softball with the Nazarenes | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Leire
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 1770

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Gentlemen, gentlemen! Please! There is enough in-fighting outside, need there be more? I have said that MT is under siege, and I mean what I have said. There is a problem here and it is up to us (yes, I include myself, however flippantly) to solve it! It would seem that too many have fallen to the Demon of Lethargy, and many more have been claimed by the depths of ignorance. The madness stops here! A line must be drawn, and it cannot be drawn in sand! If MT is to remain glorious, it must be fought for! Certainly it will change with time; all things change with time, but not all things need to fade. Please, don't banish me, us, yourselves back into the darkness of the void of pop-culture! Stand with me; stand together, or fall seperately. There is no other option.

I am trying to reclaim a fallen Angel. I believe many of you will understand what I mean by this, and I don't mean to spell it out. We must hold fast in our resolve. I have just one question: what is our resolve?

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Roll of Honor Lugbúrz
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 867

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The Mad Brigade is out here I see. []

MUR,

We very well know where the other stands on this. I would like to think of myself as a liberal, and I think you would agree with me, but after being here I would like to wash my hands with some nitric acid and count myself as a conservative, although I would be a pathetic one at that.

The Tribunate to which you so fondly refer to is dead. D E A D. You hear that?

As I've said earlier, there is really no point in laughing and preaching to us the way of great principles.

No point in sneaking in the "for who knows what part they will play" and sounding either prophetic or wise.

No point in saying that people who leave this place are not true to the City and don't stand by it at the hour of need.

No point in talking poetry.

I'll tell you why there's no point, this is not where our lives revolve. We have a limited amount of time to come over to the internet, frankly we don't always have the time nor the interest to keep tolerating the rubbish or improving the improvable.

There has to be a limit. If you're preaching a bottomless pit, all I can say is I'll wait till you fall in and come back to tell me how the ride was.

If you feel it is best the Steward just stays back and not interfere, as so many of you seem to commend him for this, fine let it be as it has been, why are we worried at all?

I have no problems avoiding the rubbish, but I don't want to lose good posters (!) here that do.

----------

Speaking of capitalization, I can only say that there is Ecthelion, who doesn't take the time to type those, and he admits it. Yes, it is an abuse of the language, but his posts are always great to read.

I think the idea of improving is also dependent on the age. For someone younger it is worth asking, but for the poor liberal arts student, it's simply not our business. (Sorry buddy, had to use you as the scapegoat [] )

-----------

To add to the Ideal Citizen:

Innovation

The site direly needs it in terms of literary potential.

From: Middangeard | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Roll of Honor Lugbúrz
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 867

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It is a pity that I always feel bad after a post like that, but MUR is not getting no apology from me. In fact I'll be glad to push him into the pit if he so much as snickers.

Edit: I'm half expecting MUR to come online right now. Ah those good old days when someone lived to the West of here...

[ 10-11-2002, 04:14 AM: Message edited by: Lugbúrz ]

From: Middangeard | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Roll of Honor Mad Uncle Rupert
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 1148

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I wouldn't expect an apology! Why? Because I agree. I hate the thought of losing Excellent Citizens for those of lesser make. But as no one has shown me how the wringing of hands has made a single one return, I wonder, did Cassandra read the future, or wrote it.

I do not have truck with the enemy, but the same I do not pummel in. Why? It's not my place. As said before, WGW has made his decision, and while in the real world I do not follow the old adage, "My Country, Right or Wrong", I follow it here. The Steward has chosen, and we must abide.

Should he change his mind, I shall sharpen my Blade and knot my rope. I will contest and complain about those who extremely out step themselves. What else am I to do?

I gladly dance upon the rim of Pit. Foolish though it may be, at least I dance.

[ 10-11-2002, 08:41 AM: Message edited by: Mad Uncle Rupert ]

From: Playing softball with the Nazarenes | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Roll of Honor Lugbúrz
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 867

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What wringing of hands? It's never been done, that's why.

Yes, this is WGW's decision, and I'm challenging it here. Aren't we all open to criticism? I feel I'm better off speaking myself about it rather than leaving because I disagree. This has nothing to do with the Tribunate, I was not an active part of it, even less than you for that matter.

Just as in parenting, there are lines to be drawn as to when a parent gives advice, intervenes, draws boundaries. A good parent knows where to draw these lines, and most importantly be clear that the child knows how it's being done.

Frankly I feel it's been a little ambiguous here, and we need the clarity, maybe even on paper like WGW said.

And I feel this way not because these are my own set of principles, but I feel the site is not a better place without them. I feel that people here do not respect the rules that WGW has penned down, just as many don't respect the law in real life.

Monarchy without respect for the throne is anarchy.

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Roll of Honor Mandin
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 415

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Thank you, Lug, for saying exactly what I should have said, and you did it much better than I could have. MUR, when I edited to explain that we did not see quite eye to eye, but that the rules should be obeyed, I was referring back to the issues that Lug has brought up in his last two posts. I wanted to say things about the Tribunate, about your mention of who knows what part they'll play, and about WGW's mistakes. I simply bit my tongue, and it is best that I did, for Lugbúrz has said it better.
From: Houston, Missouri | Registered: Mar 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Roll of Honor Mad Uncle Rupert
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 1148

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Where's the conflict, Lugz? I don't understand the ire, as I have certainly not gone against you.

You bring up the family metaphor, so I'll adapt it: You are not the parent here. WGW is. You might be a sibling, and even a wiser, more behaved one, but you may give advice and that is all.

And there is wringing of hands, as there is every month since the movie. How many threads have started in the last week about the state of MT? How many echo posts made a month before? Or a month before that? Every thing is cyclical, including this.

Question WGW's decision if you want. Personally, I don't care. I spent quite enough time two monthes ago offering suggestions, and they didn't take. So what would you have me do? Climb the Texas Tower? Both you and Mandin have refered to me and my tolerant friends. Who are these? I came to this topic with the intent of offering up my idea as to what I consider an Ideal Citizen. Did I say he used foul language or single line posts or all caps? No. So why do I continually get dumped on because I don't feel things are as bad as some?

I DISAGREE. So what? Does it stop you from complaining? No. Does it keep you from posting? No.

So why the ire? Because you're angry with them and they don't care what you say?

Who's the better for that?

From: Playing softball with the Nazarenes | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Roll of Honor Lugbúrz
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 867

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Geez, who's angry? I'm definitely not angry with you. I'm passionate about what I've said, but definitely not angry, upset or irritated.

You should know better. I know you've given many good suggestions before, but where have they gone? See, you and me can and probably will stay here and know how to enjoy ourselves. I'm not just speaking for myself when I post here. There are people who will leave, and I feel if something is done to make them feel more comfortable, it would populate this city with better people. Leaving does not show intolerance or ego, it shows a simple lack of time. We have to respect that.

I know you miss the surf, but hardly any reason to think I'm angry. [] []

From: Middangeard | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Roll of Honor Mandin
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 415

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I think I'll give MT a few more weeks yet []

[ 10-11-2002, 02:50 PM: Message edited by: Mandin ]

From: Houston, Missouri | Registered: Mar 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Create a New Topic  Create a New Poll  Reply to this Topic Minas Tirith Forums » Minas Tirith Site Announcements » Ideal Minas Tirith Citizen (Page 2)
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