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Minas Tirith Forums » Minas Tirith Site Announcements » Ideal Minas Tirith Citizen (Page 1)
Author Topic: Ideal Minas Tirith Citizen
White Gold Wielder
Steward of Minas Tirith
Citizen # 2

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There’s been a lot of anger floating around here lately, and we all know what Yoda says that leads to. There is no single reason for this since each person has their own level and their own reasons for being there. Instead of trying to become everyone’s psychiatrist or constantly reprimanding bad behavior, I thought it would be easier if we could all point to a standard of behavior that should be our goal.

Sometimes it’s like a restaurant in Pulp Fiction around here. A lot of shouting and waving around of guns (metaphorically). Sometimes I need to chill those citizens out and tell them we’re all gonna be like little Aragorns. And what’s Aragorn like?

That’s right. Cool.

I’m not looking for rules here. I don’t want to control everyone’s behavior. I’m not looking to squash individuality or drive the ‘bad’ citizens away.

The idea is to gather the principles behind the ideal Minas Tirith citizen.

This simple act should have far more effect than you may think. An idea I had as a teenager that has served me well my whole life might be of help here to explain.

The root of the best relationships, whether romantic or not, is friendship. It was something I felt I lacked at one point in my life. True friendship is rarer than you might think and our own circles of experience might not be large enough to find it. Schoolmates, the kids who lived on your block, and all people thrust together in life needn’t be friends. We may look to each other for friendship, but it is often like looking to fellow members of a life raft for food. We may fool ourselves into seeing it, but at best we go hungry and at worst we eat each other.

You’re probably saying, ‘Yum! Nice metaphor!’. Anyway, stick with me here. []

It may have been finally seeing through the veiled personality of a childhood friend. It may have been the ending of my first attempt at romance in the realization that friendship had to come first. That and a near-death experience left a clear image in my mind of what I didn’t have.

In thinking about what I was missing in my life and what could fill the void, I imagined an ideal friend. I remember laying in bed, staring at the night sky through the ceiling, thinking of all the qualities that would make a good friend.

Then, in a moment of clarity, it hit me. Even if I should happen to meet a person like this, I didn’t think I would be worthy to be their friend.

I wasn’t a bad kid, but I wasn’t perfect by any means and I lacked direction. I had been a follower up to that point in my life, but I would be a leader from then on. Especially when it came to determining the course of my own life.

I took each of the qualities I imagined and held them up to myself. Where I fell short, I set myself to reaching higher. I had given myself the task of becoming a good friend and a good person. It made all my friendships stronger and my relationships more meaningful.

A quick tale and not the whole story, but let’s see if I can navigate back to something resembling the original point. As I said, it’s an idea that has served me well in my life and it might do some good here.

Let’s gather thoughts and examples of how an ideal citizen should act in specific circumstances. We may or may not be able to craft rules of behavior from this exercise, but we should start to paint a picture of how we all wish things were like here. And from that, we can learn a lot.

I’m especially not looking to single out citizens and hear opinions on why they suck. I don’t think even using names at all would be a useful thing. Let’s keep it anonymous and stick to the ideas instead of the personalities.

For a first example, consider this situation. A person whose citizen number is old but only has around 20 posts starts a thread about the film. It’s critical of the film over a minor point. It immediately gets harshly slammed, with the individual getting beaten up along with the topic.

Not only did the attackers act immaturely, ignore the writer’s point, attack the writer himself, and stop Tolkien discussion, but they may have also stopped an old citizen from coming back to Minas Tirith. Better to let a topic be ignored than to open up a can of whoop ass on it. If someone wants to talk about it, why should you be angered by that? Also, what is more of a waste of space – a short topic of mild usefulness or a medium to long fight?

I’m sorry if people can recognize themselves in my example. It was fresh in my mind and a clear case of what not to do. I hope you won’t take offense since you are still anonymous.

Anyway, I’m not sure how I should organize this, if at all. Do we want to come up with the 10 Commandments here? The 10 Suggestions? 15? Would it be better if we left it as an open discussion with no ‘summarizing’? Opinions welcome.

I hope this becomes a good discussion that we can use to solve conflicts later.

Anyway, it should give Fight Club(tm) something else to do, and that itself makes this a worthwhile endeavor. []

From: Chicago | Registered: May 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Roll of Honor Gandalf the White
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 295

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*gives WGW a standing ovation*

Wonderful points/thoughts/philosophies etc! []

I don't have anything in particular to suggest at this moment; am just sending out support from my little corner over here!

[]

[ 10-01-2002, 05:24 PM: Message edited by: Gandalf the White ]

From: Georgia, USA | Registered: Mar 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Roll of Honor Neytari Took-Baggins
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 490

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w00t!
[]
Support your local Steward.

[ 10-01-2002, 05:31 PM: Message edited by: Neytari Took-Baggins ]

From: California ainrofilaC | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Roll of Honor Mandin
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 415

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I think the first thing that ought to be discussed, and perhaps put down as an almost concrete rule is the issue of ethics, rather than idiocy, someone's point in posting something, spelling, grammar, etc. I hate demonstrations of idiocy. I hate pointless posts. I dislike bad spelling, and cringe at bad grammar - even when it is my own.
However, to me, ethics are more important. I am not completely adverse to vulgar language. There are times when they are suprisingly appropriate and stuningly expressive. However, profuse usage of swear words in my opinion only detracts from a conversation, a point wishing to be displayed, or an attack. I think that the ideal citizen is very careful of his usage of such language.
I also think the ideal citizen avoids speaking of overtly sexual subjects or displaying sexually oriented images (this includes images that most at MT would not consider pornographic, yet their intent is nonetheless obvious). Although sex often finds itself in a conversation, there are certain ways of going about. Depending on how the subject is broached plays a huge part in whether or not this site is worthy/appropriate the presence of young Tolkien fans.
Thus, from these two things, the ideal citizen is considerate of others.
The consideration of others and especially of self also leads back to the subject of good grammar, spelling, and well thought out posts.

From: Houston, Missouri | Registered: Mar 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Vanye Aranel
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 2136

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WOW! I'm impressed that was one of the best speeches that I think I've ever heard.

-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
~*Vanye Aranel*~

From: The Shire | Registered: May 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Hydro Monkey
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 2575

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Oi, I always seem to come to boards when their going through a "dealing phase." []

I'd say Mandin's on the track; basically, just be a nice person. Do unto others and what not.

One thing I'd suggest or discourage, is the idea of setting a list of actual rules prohibiting precise things. If history tells me anything, that just always leads to troubles here and there.

From: Des Moines, Iowa | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Roll of Honor Lugbúrz
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 867

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I believe this board has lost many good citizens and is not actively engaging many that just visit the board occasionally. There are various reasons for this and all cannot be looked into.

In my opinion, the liberals here, which may include the Steward have been a little too critical of the people who have at some stage tried to help, albiet making their presence felt by leading, or taking up an issue. The liberals on the other hand do not go anywhere near the conservatives or the trouble-mongers by just classifying them as the colourful variety that a community will have. In effect the moderates are no more, or just don't bother to speak and waste their time.

In effect, if we are to discuss the values of an ideal citizen, it might also be beneficial to discuss the values of an ideal leader.

We all make a difference, but the leader makes the biggest difference.

From: Middangeard | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Roll of Honor theWhiteLady
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 1409

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Wonderful thoughts and suggestions, WGW! We are blessed to be guided by one so wise []

I agree with Mandin, and with Lugburz. However, my biggest issue is respect. Even when we disagree, as citizens of a community brought together by a common interest (or obsession [] ), we should have the decency to respect others opinions. Flaming and cussing someone out because you hate/disagree with them, does nothing but make any situation worse and reflects badly, not just upon that person, but upon MT as a whole. It is my opinion that respect, in regard to every citizen no matter what you think of them, is vital to making MT a more 'healthy' community.
*drops a small curtsy and steps off her soapbox*

From: Tennessee | Registered: Dec 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Roll of Honor Marcho Blackwood - MSS
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 270

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Wow, is right! Deep concepts for, what I hope, is a deep and fruitful discussion. First of all, I don’t consider myself a model citizen. Perhaps one who has offered a few good bits and pieces to the community. I have lost my temper on occasion, but, find counting to ten a big help.

There is no reason for anyone to slam or flame others. Simply ignoring them does just as good, if not better, job of discouragement.

I am a big proponent of good spelling and good grammar. I don’t like a bunch of abbreviations, childish wording, all caps or no punctuation. I don’t have a problem with non-native English speakers, their grammar tends to be better than most of ours! As much as I prefer it, I don’t think there should be any rules about it. Just an attempt to do a good job.

Somebody says something you don’t like? Write a reply. Off line. And let it ferment for a while. When you go back a few hours later, you may discover that you were glad you didn’t post it. Or perhaps you will have found a better way of saying it without making someone else mad.

Try to figure out why it made you mad. Was it related to religious beliefs? A topic that makes you uncomfortable? A personal connection that others are not aware of? Would this have made anyone mad, or just you? Are you overly sensitive in a particular area? It does make a difference!

Proposed Rule

R-E-S-P-E-C-T It is a relatively simple thing, but there are different types of respect and different ways to earn it. If every citizen were to respect their fellow citizens it would go a long way toward making things easier for new and old. If every citizen would strive to earn the respect of the other citizens, they would be always be welcome.

Respect does not mean agreeing with each other. I have a great deal of respect for someone that can make a valid argument on what ever topic. Even if I totally disagree, I respect their ability to share their view point and back it up.

From: Bindbale, North Farthing | Registered: Feb 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
White Gold Wielder
Steward of Minas Tirith
Citizen # 2

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Lugbúrz: You are right. I have sometimes dropped the ball when it came to finding creative solutions to problems here. But I stand by my decisions when I know a course of action is wrong (based on my standards and responsibilities). I may be guilty of doing nothing, but I'm glad I didn't do the wrong thing. Minas Tirith may or may not be the worse for wear, but we are still here and that is something.

That said, simply to exist is not my goal. I am always working to make things better here. You must admit it's a sticky problem. Controlling the actions of others is an age-old issue. It's been years now and I'm getting better all the time.

This thread will be interesting if we stay focused on moving ahead and come up with a manifesto or something. We already have the City Code of Law and Ethics. Maybe we should change it or make something new like the Code of Númenor or somesuch. It could spell out behavioral 'suggestions' and even perhaps standardize punishment.

That's a big problem right there since the only effective punishment is removal of posting rights. There's almost nothing more I can do. My lack of options in this area has been a problem since the beginning. Still waiting for the big idea to solve that one.

From: Chicago | Registered: May 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Roll of Honor Fingolfin of the Noldor
Captain of Avatars
Citizen # 156

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Great idea WGW [] [] As a great deal has already been put forth by my fellow distinguished community members, I would echo the vast majority of it especially that said on Respect. It is so incredibly concise and far-reaching a word that I think primary use of it would be especially apt.

In regard to the organization, when my family and I was moving to NH last year we visited The California Insitute of Technology briefly at which point I was introduced to their 'Honor System'(for the faculty and the student body) which was simply as follows:

quote:
No member of the Caltech community shall take unfair advantage of any other member of the Caltech community.
I think something similar would work extraordinarily well, having wide-ranging implications while at the same time avoiding the pit falls of a possibly seeming ‘authoritarian’ set of statutes or principles. It does seem to have worked very well there comparing the atmosphere there to that of certain other comparable universities *cough**cough*MIT;)*cough*. Indeed I would say the air about campus, was truly that of a close-knit community and shall I say family.

Edit - I think, also, that something like that would be easy to include in a sig or bring up without offending some people's 'sensibilities' or appearing to be an 'enforcer' or something

Edit2 - that is not to say I think there shouldn't be rules I in fact think there should be but what i am more speaking to is something separate, more informal, but perhaps quite effective

[ 10-01-2002, 09:37 PM: Message edited by: Fingolfin of the Noldor ]

From: Worcester, MA | Registered: Nov 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Roll of Honor Mandin
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 415

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"You agree, through your use of this service, that you will not use Minas Tirith to post any material which is knowingly false and/or defamatory, inaccurate, abusive, vulgar, hateful, harassing, obscene, profane, sexually oriented, threatening, invasive of a person's privacy, or otherwise violates any law. You agree not to post any copyrighted material unless the copyright is owned by you or by Minas Tirith."

I have flamed many people in my time here. I like to think that most of the time, it was a valid flaming done in an appropriate manner. However, sometimes it has neither been warranted, nor properly gone about. However, I have not violeted nearly as many of the restrictions in this clause as some of the citizens here. It appears that you, WGW, are not following this clause very much at all. I recall you dealing very harshly with someone who defamed you with rather nasty sign in names poking ugly fun at you. He is gone, and justly so. But should not a third or fourth chance (whatever it is) be permitted him seeing as you have permitted the presence of certain citizens here who have violeted this clause of the code of ethics many more times than the person of whom I speak?

I think, as the benevolent despot of Minas Tirith, it behooves you to strongly warn the appropriate citizens. If they continue as they have in the past, banish them from the city. If not this, then at least be honest with us, and just delete that clause in part, taking out the parts you really don't seem to mind.

However, if this clause is to remain in its entirety, and be enforced, I would not mind seeing something else added to it requiring Respect. Obviously, something dealing with respect could not possibly be a rigidly enforced rule, but I think, WGW, you will see general trends of citizens (be he a long established oldie or a newbie), and be able to determine from there whether he makes any effort at all to show respect.

All of this leads us to the fact that oldies seem to be able to be a great deal more stupid and mean than any newbie without suffering the same amount of flaming. Oldies get to know other oldies, and become friends, becoming blind to their faults, and treating them with a great deal more leniency than newbies. This cannot possibly be halted altogether, but anyone established here with several friends, really needs to work on it.

From: Houston, Missouri | Registered: Mar 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Roll of Honor Lugbúrz
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 867

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I will try my best to say as much as I can for tonight. Discussions similar to this have sprouted out at various intervals, especially in guises of improving the Pony and dealing with some people here that well, need to be dealt with. They have not lead anywhere, I am hoping this discussion does.

Let me begin with addressing WGW's response:

Let me again express my praise for the website. I consider that my continuing to frequent this place is enough to show that I have a good amount of respect for the place. Enough may not be said to show this praise, but times now call for moving ahead, not revelry in past splendour.

That much said, my criticism is all constructive.

quote:
I may be guilty of doing nothing, but I'm glad I didn't do the wrong thing.
Doing nothing can sometimes be the worst thing. If this is because you have felt things would take care of themselves, you should be more supportive of people who think otherwise, especially when it does turn worse. At many a point you have claimed that none here care for MT more than you, this to me is not exactly creating a spirit of caring amongst the citizens, it is more like telling them to mind their business and not try to change things around here. What I'm saying is that there are people here who look up to you as the sole person who can bring about any change here, and that is sad, because unless we believe each of us can bring about a change, nothing will change except the written set of rules.

quote:
That said, simply to exist is not my goal.
That is a very positive and important thing. Constant flow of ideas and encouragement to involve people in the community along with new ideas and pro-active ones that encourage not only the sense of belonging and friendship but also generate huge literary potential, all of which will of course lead to better Tolkien discussion as that is a common interest.

quote:
This thread will be interesting if we stay focused on moving ahead and come up with a manifesto or something. We already have the City Code of Law and Ethics. Maybe we should change it or make something new like the Code of Númenor or somesuch. It could spell out behavioral 'suggestions' and even perhaps standardize punishment.
It will greatly help to make a start by reexamining the code, as Mandin has done, and seeing where you and we stand on each point. This may help to formulate a new code that can be followed well.

As the city has grown, your attitude may have changed, but it is now important to be consistent.

quote:
That's a big problem right there since the only effective punishment is removal of posting rights. There's almost nothing more I can do. My lack of options in this area has been a problem since the beginning. Still waiting for the big idea to solve that one.
That is not true at all. Removing posting rights is only the a preventive measure, and not the only cure for a situation. Reasonable and valid public discussion, and making yourself heard about where you stand is the best way not only to deal with the present person but also make it clear to other where you stand on an issue. It will involve your time, a considerable amount of it.

Look at the "Recent Disciplinary Action" thread. Do you think you have made a point about every citizen brought up there. If you have made a point, has everyone heard you? I don't think you should let that kind of fighting continue after you have made yourself clear. If a decision has been made, it should be final. They can take their petty fights elsewhere.

I really liked what TheWhiteLady said about being nice to people, and has since been reinforced by everyone. Aren't we fed up of recurring arguments? Instead think of how we can start threads that can make this place better- for you and the rest of us.

There are many of us who have not got into a fight here and never intend to, but seeing it all around is disgusting.

I have been very busy of late but I'm hoping to start spending some quality time on the net by the end of this year. Hopefully by then this will be a more amicable place with more quality posters around than now.

Sincerely yours.

From: Middangeard | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Roll of Honor TheGentleman
Captain of the Newbie Guard
Citizen # 718

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Minas Tirith fascinates me: here we have a large community of ultra-diverse members following a simple ‘circle of life’ associated with the classic group dynamics with varying circumferences. Group appear within the larger community and follow that same dynamic to a lesser extent based on their motivation for joining. My motivation was to learn more about Tolkien, others join to make friends and meet people of a like mind, and some join solely to express opinion – whatever the motivation we all deserve the same treatment and should all obey whatever rules the community has (in its organic life) shaped. To date Minas Tirith remains one of the most ‘free’ communities on the Internet. WGW has in his wisdom kept an accurate distance and allowed the community and all of its citizens to breathe; at times allowing members to settle dispute themselves and only ever stepping in when those disputes reach a level needed for outside intervention (which is rare).

‘Commandments’ maybe a good step forward in terms of defining expected behaviour. I do not feel that I have enough knowledge or experience at MT to contribute to these commandments (I’ll leave that to the older members), but I will offer my own opinions on how this community works, take them or leave them but I would like to offer some food for thought.

I’m sure a lot of us have heard of Tuckman and Jenkins model of group development (probably the most repeated model in any meeting room across the globe) of Forming, Storming, Norming, Performing, and Adjourning. Although I’d never apply this model to a real life group let alone an Internet community, I want to ponder on the words Storming and Norming for consideration of cause and effect.

I see a lot of Storming at MT. It's often subtle, sometimes blatant but it is and always has been present. Storming is classically when members resist control of group leaders and often act hostile, but how can this be possible when the only true ‘leader’ is WGW and his input is minimalist. Well I believe there are other ‘leaders’ here at MT but not of the sort you would classically associate with formal groups. The leaders I speak of are self-appointed champions of MT, the older members who by will or by their shear weight of presence, renown, and reputation are looked upon as regulators. As members arrive it is these ‘leaders’ that people realise they need to Storm if they are ever to reach prominence in the community. For most the Storming process is swift and once they realise it is not needed they move on, for others the Storming last a lot longer and turns into animosity, hostility, and sometimes hatred. This is when problem occur. So, what can be done (if anything) to prevent Storming in this sense? I think WGW made his best move by ditching the post count – I think he could go one step further and ditch the member number. Other than that I think the ‘leaders’ should realise that when the younger members start Storming that it can only be aggravated by playing up to the bait. The Stormers know that the ‘leaders’ have no power and therefore relish in the confrontation that much more.

Norming is when people work together, developing close relationships and feelings of camaraderie. In my experience MT has always been very good at achieving this. The main reason for this was the small nature of the community. These days the number of members has prevented successful Norming but not made it impossible. Even now I see new members entering the city and start Norming straight away, finding their perfect group (those if similar interests/age/intelligence) and making friends straight away. But conversely I see new members becoming lost and confused as soon as they enter the city and being ignored. These members soon leave. So what can be done? Well I think the Floating Log and particularly the Newbie Chocolate House are excellent additions to MT. But maybe more can be done to place new members on a pedestal for a short period, enabling them to announce their interests and write a bit about themselves. Maybe WGW could put some suggestions in his welcoming e-mail (the one containing the password) detailing how a new member can start a new thread in the Floating Log containing some suggested information (like, dislikes, favourite music, and so forth).

As for behaviour and what would make the ideal citizen, I don’t think there is such a thing. In this community you need a diverse group of people each with their own self-defined roles, whether it be task, result, or self orientated. Without these dynamics this place would be mundane and converse would be stagnant at best. I’m a great believer in rules that say ‘focus on’ or ‘try to’, rather than ‘do’ or ‘don’t do’; suggestions rather than commands.

Ok, enough waffle and some suggested ‘Commandments’ based on my above argument:

1. Focus on providing an equal opportunity to participate in the group.

Be aware that this community is bigger than your own clique. Take time to notice new members and find out more about them. If they enter a thread that you participate in, encourage their thoughts and read their opinions. (I myself am guilty of skipping the posts of members whose name I do not recognise.) Be careful not to pressure or force participation as this may have an adverse effect.

2. Work toward creating understanding.

Do not chastise those that ask questions regardless of them being answer previously. Many do not know you can search or how to search, many do not know how to view older threads. This may be due to laziness but it may very well be down to computer illiteracy. Tolerance will help to make others feel welcome.

I will leave it at that, I doubt anyone will have read this post in its entirety as it is pretty exhaustive although I could go on. But as a final observation by establishing some informal rules of behaviour, being flexible, and periodically asking questions like, "How are we doing?" and "How can we improve the process?" we will learn how to create a high quality community, and, more important, will be able to apply that learning to other members when they arrive.

~tg

[ 10-02-2002, 05:11 AM: Message edited by: TheGentleman ]

From: London, England | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Roll of Honor Gandalf the White
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 295

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I read your entire post TG, and I think you have some points there that can definitely be applied to MT life to improve it. Very good suggestions []
From: Georgia, USA | Registered: Mar 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Roll of Honor Marcho Blackwood - MSS
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 270

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Okay, I’m going to try again! My PC simply rebooted itself in the middle of trying to get this written the first time! And yes, I have read all of these posts, in their entirety!

I have said on many occasions, and backed it up with $$, that I appreciate Minas Tirith. The opportunity given us by White Gold Wielder to share Tolkien information, as well as discuss current events and social issues has been phenomenal. I like to think that I have provided some useful input in many of the threads, and certainly enjoy the challenges of the Trivia and even the RPs.

Despite this being a Tolkien board, I feel it is of most value to society as a whole when someone, usually a young someone, posts a problem that they are having in life. This is when I really enjoy seeing the variety of suggestions and discussions affecting someone’s life. I like sharing different perspectives and being able to provide an ‘adult/parent/attorney’ point of view. Personally, I got rather ill seeing someone suggest suicide on a recent thread. While I hope it was in jest, it is scary and not the type of thing I like seeing here.

WGW has shown restraint in many cases. While some may not like the wait and see management style, it can be effective. He has not dominated the board, not used his position to force a viewpoint on us, and is pretty responsive to our requests and complaints about individuals.

Has he always done what is right? I have not seen anything that I disagree with, though apparently some others have. Bottom line is, whether we wish to acknowledge it or not, WGW is the absolute ruler of this community. With a simple quick click, Minas Tirith can cease to exist. He has not done this, and has not only increased the communities size, but has renewed the city’s infrastructure. (Something many real city planners could learn from!)

WGW is a human being subject to emotions. Most of us realize that it is best not to piss the boss off! No he isn’t ‘The boss of me,’ but he provides something I like, so I’m not going to alienate myself from him. It is a pretty simple idea, ‘There is no free lunch.’ You want to ‘play’ at Minas Tirith, you have to follow the rules. As my daughter explained hockey penalties when she was about 5,
quote:
You do something bad you get a 2 minute time out. You do something really bad and you get a 5 minute time out. You do something really, really bad, and you get a ten minute time out and have to go home.
Some people just can’t handle this concept, or, what is more likely, as yet haven’t been on earth long enough to learn that arguing with the referee gets you thrown out of the game. WGW is the referee. We can complain and yell ‘Foul!’ all we want, but if the referee doesn’t see it, or doesn’t think it is an infraction, no penalty.
From: Bindbale, North Farthing | Registered: Feb 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Roll of Honor Ecthelion of the Fountain
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 955
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saving space while i sharpen an opinion sufficeitnly to deal with the honest and tactfully posts mentioned above
From: seattle, wa, usa | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Roll of Honor Lugbúrz
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 867

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Well, this one's fizzling out too.

Anyways, I'm sorry if I was very curt about how I felt, but I hope it helps and I hope the discussion takes off and involves more people in it.

I really can't seem to understand why there is so much distrust among the people here, especially when you do not have the mechanics of real life to deal with.

Cheers,

Lug

From: Middangeard | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
White Gold Wielder
Steward of Minas Tirith
Citizen # 2

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I haven't forgotten about this topic. Just letting it stew a bit over the weekend. Plus I was busy. []
From: Chicago | Registered: May 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Roll of Honor Mad Uncle Rupert
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 1148

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My Lord,

Interesting thoughts, all in all.

I'll attempt to bring it all together long enough to define what I consider the Ideal Citizen:

First, the ever popular concept of respect. A lot has been said of this, and bears repeating. The Ideal Citizen should allow others to state what they will, and accept their choices, even while disagreeing with them. Flaming is right out. If a Fellow Citizen chooses to be, or is by nature, homosexual, for example, the Ideal Citizen who disagrees with that lifestyle might offer advice on this, but would certainly not say "All you Homo's are going to H**l!" Respect the Right to be different.

Second, the less popular concept of Open-mindedness. By this I mean the idea of listening and actively trying to understand an opposing viewpoint. The Ideal Citizen should carefully read another Citizen's post, and think through the statement before comment. It might be that upon first reading he will not understand the concepts put forward. In this case The Ideal Citizen will ask for clarification, and not take the opportunity to pick apart. And if the two Citizens cannot agree, he will choose to end the debate, rather than turn to insult.

Third, the absolutely hated concept of Responsibility. By this I mean the willingness to accept mistakes and apologize. The Ideal Citizen, when he discovers he is in the wrong, admits this mistake and apologizes. He does not attept to place blame or assign guilt. He will not say "I'm sorry if you don't understand." This is no apology. And apologizing and then returning to the same behavior is juvenile. If a person is wrong in doing it once, he may have made a error. Twice indicates premeditation.

And lastly, the concept of Humor. The Ideal Citizen is willing to accept another Citizens jests when they are presented as such. If a Fellow Citizen jokes about the Ideal Citizen's nationality, or profession, or whatever, he should be willing to allow this to go on with a friendly laugh and a retort in the same vein. He would never stoop to the use of sexual innuendo or foulness to get a cheap laugh, especially under the cover of "That's how comedy is where I am from." That, in my opinion, is the foulest excuse for bad behavior that has appeared on this Board.

You may notice that I do not include spelling and grammer. While I prefer the proper use of the language, I do not feel that the lack of education makes anyone a lesser Citizen. Improvement, however, is the Rule.

At Your Service,
Rupert

From: Playing softball with the Nazarenes | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
simbelmyne
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 2530
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The only time I have flamed is in relation to extremist dogmatic statements. I regretted it instantly, but I will say one thing:

We should be intolerant of intolerance.

There should be an 'equal opportunities' policy. No homophobia, racism, sexism. Which is not to say that humour should be censored.

From: manchester | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Roll of Honor Neytari Took-Baggins
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 490

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quote:
We should be intolerant of intolerance.
Some would view that as an intolerant statement. I think we should set a good example of tollerence to the intollerent. Practace what we preach.
From: California ainrofilaC | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Roll of Honor Curufin the Crafty
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 2540

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I agree with everything MUR says.

I would like to add another one, though.

Tolerance of Newbies
I don't mean tolerating meaningless post after meaningless post, I simply mean that we should be embracing new citizens, instead of reminiscing about a "better" past in which most of the people weren't here. Perhaps if we embrace the new people, and help to guide them in the right direction (towards the literature and away from Orlando bloom), they will have a better chance of becoming "Ideal" citizens themselves.

From: Wherever people are oppressed... | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Roll of Honor Neytari Took-Baggins
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 490

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*nods* Word!
Translation: Hear hear!

From: California ainrofilaC | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Roll of Honor theWhiteLady
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 1409

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MUR: That sounds exactly right! The idea of responsibility is very important, and one of the hardest things to do. Your description of the ideal citizen sounds perfect! Now, if we could all only live up to it []

Theodwyn: I agree completely, tolarence of newbies is very important, and many times I have seen them flamed and attacked when they probably had no idea what they had done wrong. A very good point!

From: Tennessee | Registered: Dec 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
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