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Minas Tirith Forums » Minas Tirith Site Announcements » Recent Disciplinary Action (Page 2)
Author Topic: Recent Disciplinary Action
Roll of Honor Mad Uncle Rupert
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 1148

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I've been kind of avoiding bringing this up, but there seems to be a growing sense of intolerance on MT. It's almost as if when a person does something a little out of line, or a little irritating, we go running to WGW.

Take Cells for example. It aapears that he was just upset and angry because of something that happened to a friend. Now I don't know what happened, and I don't agree with what I did, but I can't fault the intent behind it. I believe in sticking by your friends and defending them, and I think that's something we should instill in the younger members. I think just aiming them down the right path is enough.

I've seen that a number of newer members seem to just post junk, like one-liners, or very short answers that don't seem to apply. Ignoring them might be better than making a big deal out if it. There are people who are real pigs that appear, and I think they are the best targets for our disdain.

Just call 'em like I see 'em.

From: Playing softball with the Nazarenes | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Roll of Honor Lugbúrz
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 867

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MUR,

This person whom I brought up has over 700 posts, all one liners, has been warned before by many members and WGW himself. And IMHO it has been very irritating to read those posts in the literary forums. Nobody else in my memory had behaved like this.

We can be as tolerant as we want but it is my impression that she is not going to take any notice of it.

I just am helping out here and the names I bring up are like Pippen Took who obviously are people just spamming.

The mention of Mirithan was because it is just getting out of hand and as Marcho points out you enter a nice thread with the expectation to learn more and you see this really dumb line inbetween. And there are 700 like those all around.

Yours,
Lug

From: Middangeard | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Roll of Honor Mad Uncle Rupert
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 1148

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Not meaning to offend, Lugz.

I haven't been in on those discussions where this person has piped-in, I have seen a couple that had posts from this person (have you noticed I'm no longer using gender pronouns?) and they haven't seemed that bad. Of course I don't have your perspective on the problem. Perhaps this person can only post so much, being a little slow or something. Sure, it's irritating, but does it break the Rule? If it does, well, that's another subject.

I was refering more to horsehottie than anything else. While the person is obviously a troll, it hasn't posted an insane amount, in fact only five times. Now I'll agree that it isn't the best possible new recruit, how can five posts warrant a reporting?

I'm just afraid that recent events have made everyone a bit jumpy, and more prone to offense. If the first person is a problem, or even the second, well fine, report away. I just think it's best to be sure, first.

[ 06-27-2002, 08:30 PM: Message edited by: Mad Uncle Rupert ]

From: Playing softball with the Nazarenes | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Roll of Honor Bethberry
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Citizen # 1217

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Hi MUR,

Re: Mirithan. There have been many days when I've come on to MT to find every folder, both north and south of the Pony, with a most recent post from this person, all roughly along the lines of "I didn't know that", "Oh, that's right", "I'll go check that out" (without ever replying back) etc etc etc. It clearly isn't a matter of someone loath to make a long post or being shy of words. When it happens day in and day out, over and over, it begins to amount to spam, particularly when it intrudes on a conversation or discussion. That is what is tiring people out. I don't think they are being intolerant.

And re: Cells. While I, too, think it is commendable to stick up for friends, there are legitimate ways to do so. Had Cells and Vash spoken up when this alleged incident happened, I think that would have been appropriate and commendable. In this case, however, the intent was to seek vengeance and retaliation. And the plan duped citizens who posted honestly and innocently, who were not involved in any way. That, to my mind, does not speak of good intent.

I appreciate your desire to ask for forebearance and tolerance. However, I have seen forums ripped apart by nasty tricks, troll and monkey games, and secret agendas like this (as well as by uncontrolled flaming). It makes people leery of posting and hesitant of staying. It destroys community.

This is the motivation of people here like Lug and Marcho and Oro. They are not being intolerant. Rather, they are trying desperately to maintain courtesy and civility.

Respectfully,
Bethberry

[ 06-27-2002, 09:35 PM: Message edited by: Bethberry ]

From: the Bonfire Glade in the Old Forest | Registered: Dec 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Roll of Honor Mad Uncle Rupert
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 1148

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Bethberry: I very much agree with what you have said. Though I don't really know the entire history about the Mirithan thing, I have no doubt that Lugz, Oro, and Marcho feel they are correct in their actions, and by their word, I believe them. I think all three understand that it is not Mirithan or even horsehottie I am worried about. It's the three of them.

I know that Lugz has taken quite a bit of what is happening to heart, and it upsets him quite a bit. Short of banning Mirithan, is it likely that this person shall change? If not, then I say they are justified.

Can the same be said for horsehottie? While I agree that using MT as a contact board for PMs is wrong, it doesn't seem to be against the Rule. Let's face it, if it is, we have all violated this at some point or another. But do five posts really disrupt that much? I'm afraid that this is being turned into a tempest in a teacup. Again, if it continues, it may well be justified.

What I am saying is that it is important to be sure that we act within the Rule of Law, or we are little better than those we despise. If, after discussion, persons decide that the Rule has been violated, then we act. If due caution is not taken, the wrong thing is almost inevitable. I would hate for those who love this place the most, and do the most of any Citizen, to lose respect because of the impression of unfairness.

The GTW situation is another matter, but it displays what I am saying in an exaggerated manner. Cells believed that he was doing something that needed to be done, so he took action unilaterally. He was wrong, as such action must be. Had he felt GTW had done something wrong, he needed to deal with WGW directly. Doing so, something might be slow in coming, but it would be done within the process prescribed.

Instead, he made a shambles out of the situation, discrediting his own arguement and those of the people he agreed with. No good has come. He violated the Rule, and no matter his intention, he should face punishment for it, should WGW decide. I have discussed this with Cells, and I believe he has listened. The next step is his.

The same thing is happening here, but in a more civilized way. Instead of dealing with the discussion privately, it is made public, thus creating animosity. While nothing against the Rule has been done, the sense of fairplay has, perhaps, been abridged. Lugz, Oro, and Marcho have much more credibility than many others, so this lends weight to what they say. If it had been dealt with privately, it still wouldn't be exactly an even playing field, but it would at least be fair, and not cause humiliation.

I'm not saying this because I think that these good men are wrong, but because I know. I have done these things in the past, and I have suffered for it. Grudges last. I would do or say anything necessary to protect these friends from the situation my actions have placed me in.

And I realize that some might take what I am saying the wrong way. That's the risk you take. But I would rather people think less of me, and not less of them.

From: Playing softball with the Nazarenes | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Roll of Honor Lugbúrz
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 867

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MUR,

You misunderstand my intentions for posting in this thread.

When Pippen Took came and posted on MT, I sent WGW a PM after there were 5 posts alone, because they were all the same junk.

I have no authority to decide what to do and fully know that the Steward here will take the best action, nothing unneeded or too harsh.

But it is important that he knows what is happening. As for horsehottie, I brought the name up. If the posts stop at 5 then it is okay. The Steward simply wont do anything. If it does increase to an alarming number then he has an early warning. He can keep watch or send a PM telling the person that it is not correct to create a new account just to post stuff like that.

I think we very well understand my liberal views so there is no need to feel that my posts here are trying to demand any action, they are humbly informing the Steward of the situation.

I am not bothered if some people perceive it as being beyond necessity. As Mandin says a little restraint on our part will help a long way. And I'm very restrained before posting here.

I do not know what posts of Mirithan you have read which are 'ok' but this is not a new incident and has been occuring for a long time now. It has been discussed a lot and recently she has started flooding the threads again. Of course it is upto the steward to know but if it is needed to bring it to his notice then I don't mind doing that, and taking responsibility for it.

Yours,
Lug

From: Middangeard | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Roll of Honor Lugbúrz
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 867

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quote:
What I am saying is that it is important to be sure that we act within the Rule of Law, or we are little better than those we despise. If, after discussion, persons decide that the Rule has been violated, then we act. If due caution is not taken, the wrong thing is almost inevitable. I would hate for those who love this place the most, and do the most of any Citizen, to lose respect because of the impression of unfairness.

MUR,

I can speak for myself here.

Apart from Mirithan, the other names brought up by me here are apparently not people who want to stay here but are spamming. If we wait to discuss it then the Steward will have more posts to delete, nothing else. This is the need for quick action.

As for Mirithan, it is an unusual case and is in my knowledge the only one which disturbs the literary forums.

Yours,
Lug.

From: Middangeard | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Roll of Honor Mad Uncle Rupert
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Citizen # 1148

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Okay Lugz, I just wanted to make sure that you were sure. I know that you are smart enough and kind enough to make your own decisions, but I would rather make you a little mad at me than watch your reputation be harmed without warning.

I am comfortable now that you know the potential problems, I'll leave you alone about it.

Rupert

From: Playing softball with the Nazarenes | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Roll of Honor Lugbúrz
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 867

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quote:
I would rather make you a little mad at me than watch your reputation be harmed without warning.
That just depends on how you help me out. []

The trick here is to judge for oneself what the situation is. If you look at horsehottie's posts it is apparent he/she knows people here. So it is most likely a double account. One of these posts is in the literary threads. Who is to say there will be no more.

They seem to have stopped, though.

In fact I wouldn't be doing this if I had a job. *hint* [] Actually I need to complete my thesis so good night, you lucky employed souls. []

From: Middangeard | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Roll of Honor Mad Uncle Rupert
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Citizen # 1148

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Okay, okay! I'm working on it!
From: Playing softball with the Nazarenes | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Roll of Honor TheGentleman
Captain of the Newbie Guard
Citizen # 718

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QUOTE] If you look at horsehottie's posts it is apparent he/she knows people here. So it is most likely a double account. [/QUOTE]

In some cases people come to the board at a recommendation from people they know in RL. Mirithan for example came here because other people on the board who know her in real life told her that is was a good place to chat. Mirithan has never read LotR and only came here to talk to her school friends. She then created two new accounts to try and rid herself of a bad reputation but only made her situation worse.

From: London, England | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Roll of Honor Sauron's Secret Agent
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Citizen # 1891

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There seems to be some misunderstanding about Mirithan here, so may I clarify?

Mirithan has indeed read LOTR, and other works by Tolkien. She joined MT at the suggestion of one of her school friends, who is spending much time in RL trying to persuade her to behave herself both here and in RL. This younger citizen's mother has also spoken to Mirithan in RL, during the week when she was absent from the board because of computer problems, and she promised to behave when she returned.

Mirithan = Storm Captain = Tashran. She has also been Sakwa, Beladur and Milatrophina.

It was other young citizens who joined basically to use MT as a chat room, but that is one accusation which cannot be levelled at Mirithan.

On a lighter note, I am slightly disturbed to hear that Mirithan wants to meet me in RL, as long as I bring my whip. []

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Roll of Honor TheGentleman
Captain of the Newbie Guard
Citizen # 718

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I'm shocked SSA! Are you saying that what I said about Mirithan was...*gasp*...wrong? You need to realise that I am never wrong! []
From: London, England | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Roll of Honor Sauron's Secret Agent
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 1891

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*recoils in horror, and passes out*

[]

*is revived by kindly rescue dog*

[]

*feels sickly and green*

TG: how could you think that I was accusing you of being wrong? It is all my fault, of course, for not explaining clearly enough.

I know that you are never wrong, about anything.

[]

[ 06-30-2002, 05:10 AM: Message edited by: Sauron's Secret Agent ]

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Roll of Honor Swift Asfaloth
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Citizen # 1435

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I have to side with Mad Uncle Rupert on this one. Yes, the behavior of this Mirithan person is annoying and juvenile, but as intelligent individuals, we all have an option: if something doesn't apply to you, then don't look at it, don't read it, ignore it, and/or throw it away. This is the best piece of advice I ever got from any of my professors in grad school. I tend to think that Mirithan has Attention Deficit Disorder, in the sense that it can't get enough attention. The more MT citizens fuss about the irritating one-line posts, the more attention Mirithan gets, and the more inane threads it will start in order to garner even more attention.

What disturbs me about the situation is that it is upsetting worthy citizens like Lugburz and Orofacion , and perhaps distracting them from their participation in Tolkien discussions and their usual witty, intelligent, and well-considered posts. Perhaps a citizen with good parenting skills (and this is not a function of age) can contact Mirithan and convince it that its behavior is disturbing others. It seems that Sauron's Secret Agent has tried to mediate/resolve the situation, but perhaps the efforts of another citizen or two will be required for this tough case.

From: Calenardhon | Registered: Dec 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Roll of Honor Bethberry
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Citizen # 1217

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Such a halo, MUR. Such presumption.
It's a good thing you don't wear a priestly collar.

quote:
What I am saying is that it is important to be sure that we act within the Rule of Law, or we are little better than those we despise.... [and would] lose respect because of the impression of unfairness....

The same thing is happening here, but in a more civilized way. Instead of dealing with the discussion privately, it is made public, thus creating animosity. While nothing against the Rule has been done, the sense of fairplay has, perhaps, been abridged.

With all due respect, the same thing is not happening here. Discussion is happening here, not secret revenge or retaliation. There is nothing unfair in open, free debate and discussion. I don't think Lug, Oro or Marcho deserve the insinuation you apply to them.

Bethberry

From: the Bonfire Glade in the Old Forest | Registered: Dec 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Roll of Honor TheGentleman
Captain of the Newbie Guard
Citizen # 718

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quote:
If something doesn't apply to you, then don't look at it, don't read it, ignore it, and/or throw it away.
I feel sorry for you if you think this way. Where is the sense of community in this advice? I dislike the attitude of 'turning a blind eye', it's something the more powerful countries in this world excel at.

I ask you: if you were walking down the street and you saw a woman being attacked by three men, would you not look at it? It doesn't apply to you or affect you directly so would you ignore it?

From: London, England | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Roll of Honor Swift Asfaloth
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TG-I'm very offended by that post. I was referring to stupid notes, memoranda, and e-mail posts, not human beings or animals or the environment or anything else important. Of course I wouldn't ignore any living being in distress, mental physical, or emotional.
From: Calenardhon | Registered: Dec 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Roll of Honor TheGentleman
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I didn't mean to offend you but surely the same adage applies here? MT is a community after all. If somebody is attacking others, or behaving in an offensive manner, or even simply irritating others and making there stay less enjoyable, shouldn't you intervene?

[ 06-28-2002, 10:40 AM: Message edited by: TheGentleman ]

From: London, England | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Roll of Honor Swift Asfaloth
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TG-Hence the second paragraph of my initial post in this thread. It is precisely because I am concerned about the happiness of worthy, responsible MT citizens such as Lugz, Orofacion, SSA, and you, for that matter, that I suggested that someone needs to help with the situation. I'm afraid that negative attention is better than no attention for someone like Mirithan, and I'm truly very sorry that the situation seems to be upsetting you. You're right, MT is a community, and even though we're dispersed across the globe, we should still be concerned for each other. I really was talking about ignoring just academic bumph and silly gossip, not people or their feelings.
From: Calenardhon | Registered: Dec 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Roll of Honor Sauron's Secret Agent
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Citizen # 1891

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We have tried with Mirithan, honestly, we really have tried. Both here in our fair city, and in RL.

She's a bit like Toad in Wind in the Willows, she'll say anything "in there" - but then she goes away and continues her merry way.

One can of course ignore her. Her threads are easy - just don't enter them. But the one-liners scattered all over the city? Even if you can ignore them, they are an irritant.

Perhaps none of you has also had the following-around that I endured for several weeks - wherever I went on the board, so did she, posting after me. She dragged up old threads where I had posted just to 'comment' on my posts. When I tackled her about this, she claimed that I was following her around the board. This is still beyond my comprehension - we have never met in real life, and all I do here is criticise her. It must be attention-seeking.

My own post count is ridiculous - and a huge number of those have been spent on Mirithan. I feel responsible for her being here - I suggested to our younger 'sister' that her Tolkien-fan friend should join. Having seen her behaviour, I felt obliged to try and do something about it. I must confess that she is my first failure.
I can normally handle teenagers...

But really, however those of us who object to her are criticised, something must be done about her. If she is driving away people with longer experience here, respected citizens, then this is not good for Minas Tirith.

I don't number myself among these 'oldies'; I have only been here myself since March. But I have loved Tolkien for many years; of all the boards I visited over many months, Minas Tirith was the one that appealed to me most; the only one I actually joined (although I have now semi-defected, out of desperation, and joined two other places); here I was welcomed warmly, and soon felt at home. I strongly object to being driven away by a few obnoxious teenagers (Mirithan being the worst, but not the only one). But my life is busy; I can only spare limited time for the internet (how do some of you spend so much time here?!); and I don't intend to spend that time being driven to distraction.

If it is morally wrong to object to pointless infantile behaviour, mis-placed arrogance and condescension, multiple posting, and poor use of English (the great professor's great love, after all), then I for one plead guilty. Totally unashamedly guilty.

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Roll of Honor Lugbúrz
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 867

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quote:
and perhaps distracting them from their participation in Tolkien discussions and their usual witty, intelligent, and well-considered posts
Swift:

I don't know about the well-considered and intelligent but I'm not leavin my wit nowhere. []

In fact it is a calm discussion to encourage it and esprit de corps.

I am not so bothered by it as I am bothered about it.

Thanks for your concern,
Lugly Duckling

From: Middangeard | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Roll of Honor Mad Uncle Rupert
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Citizen # 1148

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Saint Rupert, at your service, Lady Bethberry!

I did not mean to imply that any of these three were wrong, and I believe they realize this. I voiced my concerns, was satisfied, and withdrew my concerns.

I shall withdraw to my cave and remember to keep my place.

Rupert

From: Playing softball with the Nazarenes | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Roll of Honor Bethberry
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Citizen # 1217

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Saint Rupert Balrog,
So, you're not going to share your sackcloth and ashes but hoard them?

Bethberry

PS. This is a joke.

[ 06-28-2002, 03:16 PM: Message edited by: Bethberry ]

From: the Bonfire Glade in the Old Forest | Registered: Dec 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Roll of Honor Mad Uncle Rupert
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 1148

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Yes Ma'am, I understood that.

And I can't share the ashes and sackcloth or I can't do the whole 'Wings of Shadow' thing!

From: Playing softball with the Nazarenes | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
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