You think you speak for everyone when saying hardly anyone is interested in his work. But you don't. I, for example, think it is very interesting and even if I didn't like it, I would not publicly state this.

You also say you cannot use my forums for holding your auctions Well what is Bag End Auctions for? And who is it for? Only specific people I presume? I'd still like an answer as to the purpose of this forum because the blurb describing it says Buy and sell your Tolkien treasures or mathoms here. I guess this doesn't clarify what this forum is for after what has happened. So what is this forum for? (And who?)
I was not satisfied with the previous answer: It is not for members who already have mechanisms in their own organizations for doing this. If the mechanism you refer to is a forum, then Will still didn't violate anything because he doesn't have a forum of his own. Besides, you didn't even make That statement clear until after he did this. So I do not see how he could've been aware.

WGW says In case we need in more bluntly stated, I don't believe Will was innocent in this matter. He runs an organization and a website and is also old enough to know what he is doing. I believe he is intelligent enough to know that he was pushing the limits and taking advantage of Minas Tirith.. I don't see how he was guilty because he didn't break any rules that were laid out. Sure he runs an organization and a website but Dagorhir was no different, and "Bree Hill" advertised their website. You even approved of it. And I think Will did know what he was doing when he started a tolkien-related auction in a tolkien-related auction forum. Am I missing something? He was intelligent, but not intelligent enough to read your mind to see your disapproval and Your borderlines. He was intelligent enough to refrain from breaking any viewable written rules. He even stated that he tried to talk to you with private messages, yet you did not use this opportunity to respond and tell him your thoughts.

And as far as taking advantage of Minas Tirith, I only see his work as a contribution to Minas Tirith and the members who are interested in Tolkien's Middle Earth.

You also say I don't feel a dozen lines of a valid opinion couple with a dozen more of reprimand is cruel and unusual punishment. I don't necessarily see this as cruel and unusual punishment either, but it was definetly harmful to someone's feelings (especially when done publicly). BTW, I did not see the validity nor any reason for the way you carried out your actions.

<FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE="1" FACE="Verdana, Arial">This message has been edited by Roland on 03-28-2001 at </font>

<FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE="1" FACE="Verdana, Arial">This message has been edited by Roland on 03-28-2001 at </font>

Secondly, this thread is for selling books and stuff. Will could of held an auction on his own site very easily. I dont even think that that was the main problem. Methinks that it was primarily because this thread has been up for almost a month and more than half the original posts are Will's trying to promote his "business" I have also seen threads put in other sections that advertise this auction. Only one person had replyed by puting down a bid and that was it. One Person. This is a partial validation to WGW's remark about this being unpopular.

Thirdly, and lastly on my part. Publicly was a good choice. There was a good example of this. I know Will problay felt insulted and embarased. I know i have when i recieve some thing like this even to a lesser degree. Instead of resigning so quickly Will should have talked this out whith WGW. All i saw after WGW's "reprimand" was Wills stating that he is leavin Minas Tirith. Once again Will's actions were too hasty. He left because he felt foolish and embarased and that is his problem.

Personally i think that this auction should be closed.

"That which does not kill us, can only make us stronger!"

Seriously folks, this is getting out of hand. I say, if Will wants to leave, let him. We'll survive.

In the end, if you look at WGW's original reply to Will, all he really did that was offensive was to bluntly express his opinion of his hobby. And in this world, one must be prepared to face criticism of one's passions head on. Especially when the passion in question is viewed as offensive and blasphemous to a lot of Tolkien purists.

However, that's not what this was even about. WGW flew off the handle a bit in his opinion of Will's hobby, but the main issue was that he felt Will had been increasingly usurping rights as a Minas Tirith citizen. Will has his own website, which he can advertise anyway he wants himself. By using the Minas Tirith auctions section to sell something which is inherently connected to Will and his site (and not just a standard piece of Tolkien collectable) he seemed to be essentially engaging in self-promotion (disguised as an auction) and using the 300+ members of Minas Tirith for his own means. That's what I think WGW means about Will "not being innocent in this matter".

As for the public nature of his response, if WGW had responded privately to Will, he would have missed a good opportunity to show everyone how strongly he feels about this.

After thinking about this for awhile, and re-reading the old messages, I realized that WGW never said anything to Will that was deliberatly mean or hurtful. It might have been harsh, but it was truthful and unexaggerated.

Plus, he's human. He has opinions. Some of these may offend people. Maybe he's still learning how to be a king.

Peace, love, and all that jazz...

WGW?

KingRichard

Resolved:

Whereas: The Shire has formerly acknowledged the
lordship of the King of Gondor dating from the times
of King Argeleb II at Fornost.

Whereas: The current Steward of Minas Tirith has
consistently rebuffed all attempts to open diplomatic
relations, and recently has caused to be published
certain inaccurate and distinctly unfriendly
accusations against the Shire and its elected Mayor,

Resolved: We do hereby declare the Shire to be
henceforth and forever independent of the authority
of the Kingdom of Gondor or of Minas Tirith.

Resolved: We do hereby impose a punitive tariff on all
exports of pipe-leaf to Minas Tirith and other parts
of Gondor, in the amount of eight pence per ounz of
cut leaf. Such tariff to remain in effect until
normalization of relations between the realms. Buyers
of leaf will be required to purchase the tax stamp
through the Shire Post Central Post Office in Waymoot
before export documents can be completed. Such stamps
must be affixed and attested to by a duly appointed
representative of the Mayor.

Resolved: Gondorian citizens attempting to take leaf
out of the Shire without purchasing the tax stamp will be
relieved of all leaf in their posession and firmly
shown to the borders.

Signed and sealed on the Seventh day of Astron in the
Year of 1401 by the Shire Reckoning by:

When I found Minas Tirith it was from 25 Hobbits. I was attracted to the name because it represented a place in Middle Earth, and in my personna as Will Whitfoot, Mayor of The Shire, I also represent a place. Now... we know from the LOTR that the region known as the Shire was once a part of the ancient kingdom of Gondor, and that King Argeleb II, from his throne at Fornost, gave the region to the Hobbits some 1400 years before The Party that kicks off the events in LOTR.

So... I assumed that the web entity calling itself "Minas Tirith" was seeking to represent itself as the story entity... that is: the City of Guard, capital of Gondor. The entry page stuff goes on about "now that the king has returned" and all that. Therefore I attempted to open diplomatic relations between The Shire and Minas Tirith (in the person of White Gold Wielder). I acknowledged the ancient authority of the kingdom and sought to develop discourse on renewed ties.

To such entreaties I received no reply whatever. My assumption was that WGW's duties must keep him so incredibly busy that a visiting dignitary from a small outlying region so far to the west was simply not a priority to him.

I made myself at home among the people of the city, and of course, I frequently mentioned my home land and my occupation there as postmaster, as it is little known to the people here. Several seemed quite interested, others apparently found my prattle irritating.

Finally, and without ever granting me a private audience, the Steward's command comes crashing down from the citadel... I am accused of the heinous crime of talking about who I am and what I do. Being unwelcome in the city, I gathered my things and returned forthwith to The Shire.

I now realize that this web-based message board named "Minas Tirith" has NOTHING to do with the real Minas Tirith at all. There are no seven circles of the city, there are no great gates or fields of the Pelennor. There are no guards upon the walls nor is commerce allowed in the streets. It is a sham, a counterfeit, a deceit which usurps the ancient and honored name of Gondor's capital city to the mundane purpose of a simple message board.

My real crime here was that I tried my best to stay in character and play the role to the hilt, I thought that was the whole point of all these made-up names. Apparently WGW found this mere silliness and refused to treat with me. So be it. The export tax on pipe-leaf to Minas Tirith is now in effect. Shiriffs are patrolling the crossings at Sarnford and Stonebows. The stamps have been printed and must be affixed to any parcel of cut leaf leaving the Shire for destinations beyond Bree or Buckland. Perhaps when the leaf begins to run short tempers will cool.

Whenever the alleged Steward of Minas Tirith wishes to come to his senses and take his responsibilities as head of state seriously, The Shire will entertain proposals for renewed diplomatic relations. Until then, any party of three (3) or more armed Gondorian citizens will be assumed to be a hostile force and will be required to post bond and have escort for passage through the Shire.

You proclaim you have been insulted and vow to never return, yet you keep returning to, of all things, role-play for sympathy.

It seems you keep saying that the argument is over, and yet keep it alive when you feel you have something clever to say.

There are no new points, because he only has one point. He keeps claiming that he tried to contact me about the Shire Post and that I ignored him and that I kicked him out of Minas Tirith because I find him and his site distasteful.

None of that is true. He DID try to contact me to get me to join his site. I asked him for more information once, and then ignored his repeated requests to become a member of the Shire Post. That is the extent of his personal contact with me. There was never any asking for permission to push his liberties with Minas Tirith over the edge.

Most importantly, my problem with him was about what he did, NOT about my personal annoyance with his persona. I said all this several times in this thread, and Will has never, in all his role-playing responses, never acknowledged these points. This last post, he actually comes close to understanding my problem with him, but he focuses on his incorrect belief that I didn't want him talking about himself or what he does.

I made some changes to the disclaimer when users register to clarify what exactly I don't want. Check here if you missed my notice of this. http://www.minastirith.com/ubb/Forum15/HTML/000021-2.html

So there's nothing to address here. He sits and spends his time crafting these posts and never has a new thought about the issues. He doesn't seem to understand all my previous posts on the matter and seems incapable of even trying.

Once again for the mentally arthritic, I don't give a damn about Will's role-playing. So Will can tax all the 'pipe-leaf' he wants and even hand-craft some tax stamps and sit there and smoke them for all I care. If he refuses to understand the many ways I've attempted to explain myself, I have nothing new to say.

I do acknowlwdge that you feel I overstepped the bounds of propriety. You say you don't care whether I talk about myself and what I do, but Shire Post IS what I do, so you have me at the point of a double-edged sword there.

While you would always have been welcome as a member of Shire Post, as I recall that was not what I was proposing. I thought that I had found a kindred spirit, and was attempting to propose that we work together to co-create something larger than either of us. Of course I was never able to propose any details for negotiations as you never responded in any way. It would have been very simple to have simply answered "not interested". So... you never understood what I was saying.

So, I reiterate that the source of the conflict was and remains the fact that you chose a most inappropriate means of letting me know your feelings.

I have endeavored to the best of my ability to be polite and mannerly in the highest Hobbit tradition. Manners are the lubricant that keeps people's rough edges from rubbing together (as R.A. Heinlein once said).

As to the tax stamps, don't you recognize humor when you see it? Can't you see that I have honored you by this action? Apparently you have not studied the art of diplomacy.

I am not confident from the tone and tenor of your writings that you will ever be minded to offer and apology, but I do feel one would be appropriate.

Thanks for updating your posting requirements. It's your site so you can set any rules you want. I feel that it's unfortunate that you interpreted those rules so as to exclude my small attempts to introduce a sense of realism. I feel you've scoffed at something quite special and unusual. Too bad.

Like my opinion or not, it has been done, and done well.