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Minas Tirith Forums » The Green Dragon » Spirit of Fire - A Word Aside (Page 4)
Author Topic: Spirit of Fire - A Word Aside
Roll of Honor Varnafindë
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If you need all of them played, I suppose I could try Maglor. I don't think anyone else has claimed him.
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Eluchil
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quote:
Perhaps, but I think it's only one-way.
Why do you think he's not my favourite character ? []
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Roll of Honor Varnafindë
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quote:
[Just for the record : I'm still not comfortable with that [] but I can't detail it as I would in French. My feeling is that Finwë is wrong and puts (first) all the guilt on Míriel, though he still loves her.
I just came across something in Of Finwë and Miriel in The Later QS, and was reminded of what you had said, Eluchil - is this some of the background for your being uncomfortable with the disunion?
quote:
$16 Then Manwe called Finwe to him, and said: 'Thou hast heard the doom that has been declared. If Miriel, thy wife, will not return, your marriage is ended, and thou hast leave to take another wife. But this is permission, not counsel. For the severance cometh from the marring of Arda; and those who accept this permission accept the marring, whereas the bereaved who remain steadfast belong in spirit and will to Arda Unmarred. This is a grave matter upon which the fate of many may depend. Be not in haste!'
$17 Finwe answered: 'I am in no haste, My Lord, and my heart has no desire, save the hope that when this doom is made clear to Miriel, she may yet relent and set a term to my bereavement.
(my emphasis)

I find that very interesting ...

I'm also working steadily on my Indis-post - just discovered some small quotes that demand changing of some details, but nothing major.
I realise I'm also playing Ingwë, but he won't play a major part in our RP.

Amarië, is anyone playing Mahtan, Nerdanel's father? If not, should I try to have a go? That way Inc' could even introduce Nerdanel, who is living at home with her parents at this time, learning her father's craft, and going for long walks alone.

I'm trying to show that Indis has loved Finwë "without bitterness". It should be quite beautiful, if I succeed in expressing it the way I want to ...

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Amárië
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Nobody is playing Mahtan, and I'd be glad for you to have the part if you want it. []
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Roll of Honor Varnafindë
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I'll play Mahtan then.
I won't introduce him yet, though - but he's available when Inc' has introduced Nerdanel, for him to have someone to post with before Nerdanel meets Fëanor.

Later, they all three meet, and eventually Mahtan gets a son-in-law and teaches him his craft as well. At the beginning, he must have been really friendly with his son-in-law, and proud of him, because he learns so quickly.

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Amárië
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Yes, I think they should get along very well at first, too. Fëanor is a fast learner, talented, and a good match for his daughter. All things for daddy to be happy about. []
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Eluchil
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quote:
is this some of the background for your being uncomfortable with the disunion?
Such a quote, indeed, as well as some sentences from Manwë and Ulmo in Laws and Customs among the Eldar []
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Roll of Honor Varnafindë
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I give you Indis - 'without bitterness', but still with some sadness, I think ...
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Amárië
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Wow, very, very good!

I will have to have Fëanor react in grief - this is rather like shutting off the life support, I would think. Before this, there was always a chance, no matter how small...

I think I'll have him find out before he finds Finwë that morning...perhaps we can say that Finwë is gone, to hear the Doom, perhaps?

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Roll of Honor Varnafindë
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Finwë may well have gone to hear the Doom.
Although Indis didn't know that this would be the day when it would be pronounced, surely Finwë would know. I suppose Ingwë knew as well.

And grief is a very appropriate reaction for Fëanor.
Indis said in my post that he had had very little time with his mother. There are two versions (at least), one saying that he had had some time with her and that she had tried to influence him, another saying that he had never seen her. I'm going with the first one - I think it works better for us (whether it's supposed to be the most canonical or not).

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Inc'
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Loved your post. I share Indis' view about how one-way love is not a bad thing but a treasure. Loving someone is amazing, even if the person does not reciprocate. And only a few people think that way []

Btw, Varna, if you're in touch with Kelly by any way aside PMs, could you tell her to have a look at hers ? [] Thanks []

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Amárië
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I give you grieving Fëanor...not a pretty sight, I'm afraid.
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Roll of Honor Varnafindë
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Perhaps not a pretty sight - but beautifully written nevertheless!

I think Indis is going to have a hard time trying to convince him that she doesn't want to push him out of the family. We know that he is never convinced, and I believe that she soon gives up trying. She would be willing to love him more if he had let her - she still loves him to some extent for pity and for his father's sake.

I think it's just as well he didn't hear her words about the 'poor boy' - that's not how he sees himself. She may well make the mistake of meeting him with too much pity, with the danger of sounding condescending. 'Boy' - when he's courting a lady with intent of marriage? (Which I suppose he will be when Indis first meets him - perhaps Finwe doesn't know or at least hasn't told her?)

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Amárië
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Yes, I think he'll be courting Nerdanel when he meets Indis. And pretty sure that he wants to marry her, as well. I hope that Inc will post soon so that they can get their relationship going - I've got some ideas on that. So he won't like her insinuation that he's a "boy" at all, even though he is, indeed, very young by the measurements of the Eldar.

He will not hate Indis so much personally as what she represents - it is because of her (as he sees it) that his mother can never return. She is the one that killed his mother, in his mind, as irrational as that may be. And I think it may also hurt his relationship with Finwë to an extent, even if just because he doesn't see as much of him. If I remember correctly, Fëanor moves out about this time, yes?

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Roll of Honor Varnafindë
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Does he move out before he gets married?

I think you've got a very good point that he's got used to the life that he and his father have made for themselves and that he doesn't want to share his father with a new wife. This is the most childish of his reasons for discontent, one that shows that he's still got a part of the little boy left. Maybe he never gets rid of it. Any fear that a new wife may resent him, is more rational.

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Roll of Honor Varnafindë
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I've been discussing Nerdanel and Mahtan with Inc', he will introduce her soon, and she will do some talking with her father before she runs into Fëanor.

Does it make sense that she would be older than Fëanor? I'm seeing her as about 25, but no older than that - still fairly young for marriage, but not as unusually young as in Fëanor's case.

He has matured early, though - partly because of the strange family situation he has been forced into, but even more so just because of who he is and because of the strong spirit he has been given by his mother.

Does it also make sense that Nerdanel has no brothers?
quote:
Of Mahtan Nerdanel learned much of crafts that women of the Noldor seldom used: the making of things metal and stone.
Wouldn't he be more likely to teach his daughter such things if there was no son to teach them to?

Her mother (who loves her husband very much) won't come into the story much, so I don't think we need to name her (I don't think Tolkien did) - 'mother' and 'your mother' will be sufficient.

If there are no objections, I would also like to give her a baby sister, born only a few months ago, who won't come into the story much either, and won't be named.

(Of course, if you want a name for them and you come up with a good one, I have no objections to using names [] )

But there will be no more siblings after that baby. Her father will tell her why ... []

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Amárië
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Yes, that all sounds good to me.

So Fëanor is 20 when Maedhros is born, right? So he's probably 18 or 19 when they marry.

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Roll of Honor Varnafindë
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Is he?
That pushes his marriage too far out in relation to Finwë and Indis, doesn't it?

I think we need another timeline - I'll try to collect all the information we've got and pair it with the information we've created ourselves, and see what it looks like.

Expect a list of years later tonight []

Edit:
No, according to what you said earlier, he's only 15 (or nearly 16) when they marry. But he is 20 when Maedhros is born.

Here is the list, marking with * those years that we've made up or decided on for ourselves (i.e. not attested ones), including the years for the RPs in what I like to call the First Age Quartet, and giving Fëanáro's age at the time (ignoring the matter of different types of year):

  • *1159 : birth of Nerdanel
  • 1169 : birth of Fëanáro
  • 1170 : Míriel in Mandos (Fëanáro 1)
  • 1172 : Statute of Finwë and Míriel (Fëanáro 3)
  • *1182 : Spirit of Fire (Fëanáro 13)
  • *1182 : Doom of Mandos (Fëanáro 13)
  • *1184 : Finwë meets Indis (Fëanáro 15)
  • *1184 : marriage of Fëanáro (15) and Nerdanel (25)
  • 1185 : marriage of Finwë and Indis (Fëanáro 16)
  • 1190 : birth of Fingolfin (Fëanáro 21)
  • *1191 : birth of Maedhros (Fëanáro 22)
  • *1219 : birth of Maglor (Fëanáro 50)
  • 1230 : birth of Finarfin (Fëanáro 61)
  • *1249 : birth of Celegorm (Fëanáro 80)
  • 1250 : Fëanáro further elaborates the Rúmilian system (Fëanáro 81)
  • *1279 : birth of Curufin (Fëanáro 110)
  • 1280 : marriage of Finarfin and Eärwen (Fëanáro 111)
  • 1300 : births of Turgon and Finrod (Fëanáro 131)
  • *1309 : birth of Caranthir (Fëanáro 140)
  • *1339 : birth of Amrod and Amras (Fëanáro 170)
  • 1362 : births of Aredhel and Galadriel (Fëanáro 193)
  • 1400 : release of Melkor (Fëanáro 231)
  • *1405 : Blood Brothers and A Memory Fair but Unfinished (Fëanáro 236)
  • 1410 : Melkor starts spreading his lies (Fëanáro 241)
  • 1450 : making of the Silmarils; unrest due to Melkor's lies begins among the Noldor (Fëanáro 281)
  • *1486 : Flight of the Noldor (Fëanáro 317)
  • 1490 : ban of Fëanáro; Fingolfin rules in Tirion (Fëanáro 321)
  • 1492 : Melkor at Formenos, then to Avathar (Fëanáro 323)
  • 1495 : death of the Trees, murder of Finwë. Oath of Fëanáro, Exile of the Noldor, First Kinslaying (Fëanáro 326)
  • 1496 : Prophecy of Mandos (Fëanáro 327)
  • 1497 : Helcaraxë; Fëanáro disappears with the boats (Fëanáro 328)
  • 1498 : death of Fëanáro (Fëanáro 329)

I also made a list of whom we've now got players for and whom we still need of those characters who were listed in the first post:

Fëanáro - Amarië
Nerdanel - Inc'
Finwë - Eluchil
Mahtan (Nerdanel's father) - Varna
Indis - Varna
Maehdros - Amarië
Maglor - Varna
Amrod - Hamfast
Amras - Hamfast
Nolofinwë - Varna
Arafinwë - ?
Curufin - ?
Caranthir - ?
Celegorm - ?
Fingon - ?
Turgon - ?

So, who else will play? []

Edit 2:
Made some agreed changes 7 March -08

[ 03-07-2008, 07:10 AM: Message edited by: Varnafindë ]

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Inc'
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I know I'm supposed to post one of these days, but I'm not really in the mood... maybe tomorrow night if I have the courage to do it. I'll try and come up with a few ideas tomorrow during the day anyway.
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Eluchil
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I didn't see Varna's list of characters []

However, already playing Finwë and some other characters in AMFbU (and with the delays you all know), I'm afraid I would have no time for Nolofinwë ...

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Roll of Honor Varnafindë
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Nolofinwë is available for other potential players, then ...

Could I manage him myself, I wonder? []

*counts*
Artanis
Indis
Mahtan

That's just the characters for the Quartet, of course (and there are other RPs as well) ... but I wouldn't be playing all of these at the same time as Nolofinwë - perhaps it could be done? []

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Hamfast Gamgee
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If I wanted to play someone a bit nasty can I be Curufin?
Edit: godamn Elvish spelling []
Double Edit: got it right eventually []

[ 02-06-2008, 11:21 PM: Message edited by: Hamfast Gamgee ]

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Eluchil
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Almost - actually, whe should have :
  • Kurufinwë, Kuryo or Atarinkë for Curufin
  • Morifinwë, Moryo or Carnistir for Caranthir
  • Turkafinwë, Turko or Tyelkormo for Celegorm
  • Findekáno for Fingon
  • Turukáno for Turgon

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Amárië
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Yes, I agree. I know I slip sometimes, but we really need to stay in Quenya while they're still in Valinor. I'll try harder. []

And as for names, I think we should stay away from Kurufinwë for both father and son - it's too confusing. Obviously Fëanáro doesn't go by it, but perhaps we should use Atarinkë for the son, just to eliminate any possible confusion?

Some ideas:

Fëanáro is very young when he marries (14-ish). Is everyone alright with the idea of making Fëanáro younger than his wife?

I've started a thread up North about Fëanáro and his part in the creation of the Palantiri. Take a look at it if you get a chance. I am unaware of any textual evidence of when the palantiri were created. In my opinion, they were probably made before the Silmarils - and I find it rather interesting that they are similar in physical design. Does anyone want to speculate on why he made them? What purpose did they serve?

Also, is there any idea of the timeline for Fëanáro's creation of the Tengwar script? I can't find anything, but I don't have all of HoME with me (and I'm old-fashioned enough that I despise e-texts, although I should really try them again because they seem so convenient. I just like books... [] ).

We also had a good conversation on the Nerdanel/Fëanáro relationship, and decided that it might not always be pretty. Fëanáro seems the type who would take his anger out on those closest to him, and while I do not think he would ever be physically abusive to Nerdanel, I'm sure he shouts at her, and would probably go as far as shaking her in exasperation. Comments?

Just some ideas inspired by the weekend. []

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Eluchil
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Quick answer before I log off, on the tengwar : 1250.
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