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Minas Tirith Forums » The Green Dragon » Spirit of Fire - A Word Aside (Page 2)
Author Topic: Spirit of Fire - A Word Aside
Inc'
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What is going on in here then ? I'd be interested in playing Nerdanel and/or one of Fëanor's sons (rather Maedhros or one of the Cs) if it's okay with anybody - and if we're still going, of course !
Varna, if you still want to play Nerdanel, that's okay for me of course []

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Roll of Honor Varnafindë
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No, I think I prefer Indis, actually. You go ahead and play Nerdanel, Inc' []

Who will play Finwë?
quote:
if we're still going, of course
Of course we are!
... or at least crawling []

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Amárië
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Yay, Nerdanel and Indis! [] And you can be whichever of his sons you want to be, Inc.

I'm looking forward to this - Athene and I had a big Fëanor discussion on our drive from Oxford to Bath. []

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Roll of Honor Varnafindë
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I finally got around to reading about Indis in Laws and Customs of the Eldar.

Some of the things I had guessed were confirmed when I read that Nerdanel chose to stay behind with Indis when Finwe followed Feanor into exile. I presume that this is where they both split with their spouses, if only - as they think - temporarily (unless Feanor and Nerdanel were more permanently estranged, that is).

They also choose to stay behind when the Noldor follow Feanor, Indis possibly going back to Ingwe. She is said to be his sister.

But these things are for the third part of our trilogy - the most current relevant fact is that Indis had loved Finwe since before the Vanyar left the Noldor, "without bitterness".

There is also something relevant to Feanor's age compared to the others, so if you haven't read it recently, do so now.

Great that we might soon be able to start! Indis will be able to be in it from the very beginning, probably without any of the others.

I officially challenge Eluchil to play Finwe (or to tell us why he doesn't want to ;-))

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Amárië
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I have always been of the opinion that Fëanor and Nerdanel were more seriously estranged - and that the estrangement was very much not to his liking.

From The Shibboleth of Fëanor:

quote:
Later, as Fëanor became more and more fell and violent, and rebelled against the Valar, Nerdanel, after long endeavouring to change his mood, became estranged. (Her kin were devoted to Aulë, who counselled her father to take no part in the rebellion. 'It will in the end only lead Fëanor and all your children to death.') She retired to her father's house; but when it became clear that Fëanor and his sons would leave Valinor for ever, she came to him before the host started on its northward march, and begged that Fëanor should leave her the two youngest, the twins, or one at least of them. He replied: 'Were you a true wife, as you had been till cozened by Aulë, you would keep all of them, for you would come with us. If you desert me, you desert also all of our children. For they are determined to go with their father.' Then Nerdanel was angry and she answered: 'You will not keep all of them. One at least will never set foot on Middle-earth.' 'Take your evil omens to the Valar who will delight in them,' said Fëanor. 'I defy them.' So they parted."
From Fëanor's words to Nerdanel, I get the very definite feeling that he is quite unhappy about the estrangement. He very certainly wants her to accompany him to Middle-earth. My personal belief is that Fëanor loves her quite intensely (as he feels everything, of course) and feels quite betrayed when she leaves him.

I'll also post the description of Nerdanel from The Later Quenta Silmarillion (II):

quote:
While still in early youth, Fëanor wedded Nerdanel, a maiden of the Noldor; at which many wondered, for she was not the fairest of her people. But she was strong, and free of mind, and filled with the desire for knowledge. In her youth she loved to wander far from the dwellings of the Noldor, either beside the long shores of the Sea or in the hills; and thus she and Fëanor had met and were companions in many journeys. Her father, Mahtan, was a great smith, and among those of the Noldor most dear to the heart of Aulë. Of Mahtan Nerdanel learned much of crafts that women of the Noldor seldom used: the making of things metal and stone. She made images, some of the Valar in their forms visible, and many others of men and women of the Eldar, and these were so like that their friends, if they knew not her art, would speak to them; but many things she wrought also of her own thought in shapes strong and strange but beautiful. She was also firm of will, but she was slower and more patient than Fëanor, desiring to understand minds rather than to master them. When in company with others she would often sit still listening to their words, and watching their gestures and the movements of their faces. Her mood she bequeathed in part to some of her sons, but not to all. Seven sons she bore to Fëanor, and it is not recorded in the histories of old that any others of the Eldar had so many children. With her wisdom at first she restrained Fëanor when the fire of his heart burned too hot; but his later deeds grieved her and they became estranged.

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Amárië
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There we are - first post, and I second Elu as Finwë!

Fëanor is not as unpleasant yet as he will be in the future, of course. He's just a kid in this post.

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Eluchil
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*is hesitating*
Does this mean I would have to like Fëanáro ? []

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Amárië
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Well, you are his father... []

But I suppose that could mean you love him while not approving of his actions...
EDIT: And just think, you don't have to pretend to like him as much as Inc does! []

[ 01-02-2008, 12:39 PM: Message edited by: Amárië ]

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Roll of Honor Varnafindë
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quote:
while not approving of his actions...
At least you won't have to approve or disapprove of his denying to open the Silmarils, or of his leading the Noldor out of Valinor.

You'll be dead by that time ... []

And I think Amarië is right. Finwë's love for his son still allows for him seeing his son's faults, like his feuds with his half-brothers, and perhaps even trying to make him behave differently. Could get some good discussions there ...

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Amárië
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And really, Fëanáro doesn't do anything horribly bad until after Finwë dies, so maybe he even keeps him in hand a bit.

Fëanáro does, after all, adore his father almost to distraction, and I suppose that would give Finwë the upper hand in controlling his excesses.

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Hamfast Gamgee
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As his father, couldn't Finwe get quite annoyed, privately at some of Feanor's behaviour?
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Amárië
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So we have Nerdanel, Indis, and others further down the line. About all we need right this moment is Finwë...
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Eluchil
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I could do him, but you might be surprised by some of his thoughts []
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Amárië
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If you were to play him, I am sure that he would be perfect! I would be fascinated to see how you would play him. []

And you can give him any thoughts you like!

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Inc'
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quote:
I could do him
Of course you could []
[]

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Roll of Honor Varnafindë
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Yes, any thoughts you like, I second that!

I seem to see from the first post that we're still waiting for Mandos's decision - so we're in between, and nothing's been decided yet? But Finwe wants a divorce so that he can marry Indis and have more children? Is this where we are?

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Amárië
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Yes, that's where we are.

Mandos's decision can come any time. Indis is probably already part of Finwë's life...his "girlfriend," even? Of course he wouldn't do anything until the judgement comes down. []

EDIT: Off to bed for me - have to get up early and go find a warm duvet...we have SNOW!

[ 01-03-2008, 10:57 PM: Message edited by: Amárië ]

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Eluchil
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Time for some quotes [] :
quote:
But since it is not to be thought that the living shall, by his or her will alone, confine the spirit of the other to Mandos, this disunion shall come to pass only by the consent of both. And after the giving of the consent ten years of the Valar shall pass ere Mandos confirms it. Within that time either party may revoke this consent; but when Mandos has confirmed it, and the living spouse has wedded another, it shall be irrevocable until the end of Arda. This is the doom of Námo in this matter.
It is said that Míriel answered Mandos saying: ‘I came hither to escape from the body, and I do not desire ever to return to it’; and after ten years the doom of disunion was spoken. [Added: And Míriel has dwelt ever since in the house of Vairë, and it is her part to record there the histories of the kin of Finwë and all the deeds of the Noldor.] And in the years following [> But when three years more had passed] Finwë took as second spouse Indis of the Vanyar, of the kin [> sister] of Ingwë; and she bore five fair children of whom her two sons are most renowned in the histories of the Noldor.

The earlier version of the story of Finwë and Míriel.

quote:
Then Mandos adjudged her innocent, deeming that she had died under a necessity too great for her to withstand. Therefore her choice was permitted, and she was left in peace; and after ten years the doom of disunion was spoken. [In the year following >] And after three years more Finwë took as second spouse Indis the fair; and she was in all ways unlike Míriel. She was not of the Noldor, but of the Vanyar, [of the kin >] sister of Ingwë; and she was golden-haired, and tall, and exceedingly swift of foot.

[...]

But it came to pass that Ingwë, hearing of the strange grief of Finwë, and desiring to lift up his heart and withdraw him from vain mourning in Lorien, sent messages bidding him to leave Túna for a while and the reminders of his loss, and to come and dwell in the light of the Trees. This message Finwë did not answer, until after the doom of Mandos was spoken; but then deeming that he must seek to build his life anew and that the bidding of Ingwë was wise, he arose and went to the house of Ingwë upon the west of Mount Oiolossë.

Laws and Customs among the Eldar.

quote:
But the spirit of Míriel remained silent. Mandos therefore accepted her choice, and she went then to the Halls of Waiting appointed to the Eldar and was left in peace.1i Nonetheless Mandos declared that a space of twelve years should pass between the declaration of the will of the Dead and the pronouncement of the doom of disunion.

Of Finwë and Míriel.

So, to summarise it :
  • consent
  • 10 or 12 years later, doom
  • and then Finwë meets Indis

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Roll of Honor Varnafindë
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quote:
But Finwe wants a divorce so that he can marry Indis and have more children? Is this where we are?
I was wrong there - didn't remember the details well enough.
Finwë wants a divorce so that he can marry someone, eventually (but he doesn't know whom), and have more children.

Elu (thanks btw, very useful post):
quote:
So, to summarise it :
* consent
* 10 or 12 years later, doom
* and then Finwë meets Indis

Then where are we? Are we waiting for the consent? When was the consent given in relation to Fëanor's age?
Or is the finalised doom what we're waiting for? Does that make sense with Fëanor's age?

From Amarië's post:
quote:
He could not fault his father for wishing to marry again, but he knew in his heart he could find no love for the woman who wished to take his mother's place.
This needs to be changed - but I think no more is needed than changing the woman to any woman.

Another question: Do we go with Indis being Ingwë's sister? The published Silmarillion only says "close kin", but I suggest we go with the version where she is his sister. After the final doom is pronounced, there will be a beautiful scene when she meets Finwë in her brother's garden.

But even before that, I suppose I can start playing her, loving Finwë from a distance, not knowing whether even the fact that he may become 'free' soon (I'm sure it must be known and discussed throughout all the Eldar society, even among the Vanyar) may mean that she gets any more hope. And this, still without any bitterness ...

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Amárië
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quote:
He could not fault his father for wishing to marry again, but he knew in his heart he could find no love for the woman who wished to take his mother's place.
"the woman" was supposed to be taken generally here. []
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Roll of Honor Varnafindë
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If it's to be taken generally, then there's no need to change it. []

I guess we need Elu's view of the time issues []

What about Indis as Ingwë's sister?

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Eluchil
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I'm not comfortable with the word divorce : never forget that Tolkien was a somehow "old" catholic (he rather speaks of desunion). Most of all, what Finwë wants is to heal ("is there no healing ?"). His fault was there, after all, wishing to heal but not trusting Míriel to heal with him (cf. Ulmo's words in Laws and Customs).

Where we stand : I can only repost what I posted on the 1st page, with one more detail given by the quotes above (and see how Tolkien is consistent on this through his alterations - I love it [] ) :
  • 1170 : Míriel in Mandos
  • 1172 : Statute of Finwë and Míriel
  • 1182 or 1184 : Doom of Mandos
  • 1185 : Finwë meets and weds Indis
When or where we are is Amá to decide, within this framework []

As for Indis, sister or niece of Ingwë. On the principle, that's of no importance for me. However, on the personal level, and knowing that Ingwë and Finwë belong to the same generation, I'm inclined to imagine that Indis does too. But that's on the personal level []

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Amárië
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I've had Fëanor say he is just turned thirteen, so that puts it in 1182, if that helps at all.

And I'm find with Indis as Ingwë's sister.

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Eluchil
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I think it works quite well []
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Roll of Honor Varnafindë
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quote:
I'm not comfortable with the word divorce : never forget that Tolkien was a somehow "old" catholic (he rather speaks of desunion).
Sorry, I'm afraid I used that word a bit flippantly - certainly casually, and I wouldn't use it in the story.
quote:
Most of all, what Finwë wants is to heal ("is there no healing ?").
He wants recognition that his marriage is no longer existant - not anything like a modern divorce - because that's when he thinks he can start to heal.

I'd also prefer Indis to be Ingwë's sister, so if Ama doesn't object, that's what she'll be. When we know where we are, I can start thinking about a post. (Edit: cross-posted)

[ 01-04-2008, 10:12 PM: Message edited by: Varnafindë ]

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