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Minas Tirith Forums » The Green Dragon » The Lost Inn: A Word Aside (Page 2)
Author Topic: The Lost Inn: A Word Aside
Roll of Honor Varnafindë
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Not a talking dog as such, but one that is being played separately in the story. Yes, the interaction between those two players was great. A pity that they aren't around any more - Elyrka pops in occasionally, but rather infrequently, and Romenya hasn't been here for at least two years. [] I've written them nicely out of the story, though. []

There are certainly a few gems in the Green Dragon. To look at all those 18 pages - I haven't seen most of them, and there must be even more buried there.

Yes, Barufiniel has pointy-ears. Probably not as accutely pointy as the ears of my avatar (Snöwdog claims that those are horns [] [] ), but enough to notice. And she has given enough information already that he has rightly begun to guess her origin.

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Hamfast Gamgee
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Well, this seems fun. What I would like to do now is for Whitesnake to be able to tell the first stage of his tale. This is set in the north of the misty mountains, roughly to where Angmar used to be. He will tell Barufiniel about the Inn at the same time, though any reader should know it anyway from the first postings, but some reinforcing would be nice.

I am hoping to introduce a couple of new type of creatures in that area. Nothing to different from Tolkien, but just the type of thing he might have talked about but didn't have time. As that country is only ever mentioned in passing I think it possible that some creatures might have existed their which he didn't mention. One in particular is a little like a troll, but more so. To quote Whitesnake, it will be 'part giant, part troll, part Balrog, part Bear, part demonic being from the pits.'

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Roll of Honor Varnafindë
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If Whitesnake prefers to leave any Hobbit details for later, feel free to let him do so. It just seemed natural that Baru would ask.
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Hamfast Gamgee
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Yes, Whitesnake will explain why, he can't but help do so, but it would be more fitting for him to do so in a little while. In a few postings, what I think would be good would be if Whitesnake would leave the Inn to return to his time for a while and come back to the Inn to meet Barufiniel later on. The reason is that Whitesnake's full tale could take some time, and Barufiniel's interest might wane - in particular considering Whitesnake's personality - but if he can go back to his country, possibly meet some Elves there and bring back something of interest to her. A letter from her father perhaps? Maybe also at that time he might consider becoming nicer and maybe warming to Barufiniel a little. Though I don't think that will last.

I wasn't very sure about the idea of the Elves of Rivendell possibly executing Whitesnake. After all the Elves are good people, would they really execute even an enemy like Whitesnake? If they did, Whitesnake would have to have done something very evil to warrant it, although he probably has. Even if only under orders. Which furthur begs the question would Barufiniel tolerate Whitesnake's company if this was the case? Maybe Barufiniel is more tolerant in certain ways than other elves of her kind? I suppose the other thing is that this Whitesnake's time is 900 years before Lotr and even 800 years before the Hobbit. Maybe then even the Elves had not considered the idea of showing mercy to even their worse enemies. In fact maybe even Gandalf hasn't yet. I have had thoughts that in this story is where the idea of mercy comes to Gandalf.

Another thing is the idea of Narnian concepts. Now as it happens, I don't think I will introduce any, but I have heard it said that one shouldn't really have any Narnian ideas in a Tolkien RP. Well, this could be the case if one is been strictly purist, but on the other hand Tolkien and C.S. Lewis were old friends and were known to swap ideas with each other, would Tolkien really have minded if the odd Narnian concept would have appeared in Middle-earth? The other thing is that I'd better warn you that some of my postings may be a bit long in the future.

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Roll of Honor Varnafindë
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Baru's interest is certainly at its peak at the moment.

If she goes home, to come back the next day, will she be sure to find the Inn then? We'll let her find it for now, anyway ...

I think it's better if Whitesnake doesn't meet her father, and perhaps even that he doesn't talk in his own time about having met her in the future. I don't want any time paradoxes to complicate the story - I particularly don't want her father to know about his future.

Whatever they do while they are out of the Inn, won't be posted in the Inn thread. It probably won't be posted anywhere, but they will tell each other about some of it when they meet next.
quote:
After all the Elves are good people, would they really execute even an enemy like Whitesnake?
I don't think so. They were kind to Gollum, so much so that he managed to run away. Even the Valar hoped at first that Melkor would mend his ways, given time, and imprisoned him rather than casting him into the Void. The Elves would give a lesser enemy time to improve as well.

Whitesnake might not have realised this, though, so he will fear the risk of execution.

Another important point is that noone has discovered yet - not even at Baru's time - that the Necromancer is Sauron. Even Gandalf doesn't know who he's really up against.
quote:
Maybe then even the Elves had not considered the idea of showing mercy to even their worse enemies. In fact maybe even Gandalf hasn't yet. I have had thoughts that in this story is where the idea of mercy comes to Gandalf.
No, mercy would be nothing new to them, not something that developed out of a cruel first attitude. They are good people, they would be considering mercy a virtue all along. Whether they would always be practising it, might vary with the individual ...

Gandalf in particular would not finally have the idea of mercy coming to him. He's an emissary of the Valar, he's a Maia himself and has learnt about compassion long ago.
quote:
would Tolkien really have minded if the odd Narnian concept would have appeared in Middle-earth?
Yes.
He didn't like Narnia particularly.
"It won't do, you know," he said about it once.

Some Narnian concepts might appear in The Lost Inn, perhaps - after all, it's some kind of a portal and not very Middle-earthian itself - but none of those concepts should creep into Middle-earth as such. In Road to Rivendell I try to not even talk much about Narnia, although I allow myself a bit more freedom in that respect in this Inn.
quote:
The other thing is that I'd better warn you that some of my postings may be a bit long in the future.
I don't mind at all - long posts are generally good. Whitesnake is telling a story, we don't need to interrupt it with Baru's comments when he's really got it going.
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Hamfast Gamgee
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I do think it would be a good idea for Whitesnake to at least as far as the story is concerned leave for a few days or even weeks and then return. He does, as I know realize, have a lot to say in this tale and to tell all of what happens to him - or at least what I intend to happen to him - might take a while. More than one bottle of wine at least! As far as Barufiniel finding the Inn again, well, why can't she find it the same way as she found it the first time? She might get to quite like the place! As for Whitesnake, for the moment, he seems to have a, well, knack, for finding it, despite the fact that the location seems to move about for him. I have a feeling that some people manage to find this inn more than others, for some particular purpose or fate possibly decided by Eru. I don't think it would necessarily take up much type-space, one could just say that Whitesnake said goodbye, left, then next posting say in a few days time he came back in and just happened to find Barufiniel again.

Also, I am beginning to think that there should be more than one person telling this tale here. It's all very well hearing it from Whitesnake's point of view, but perhaps someone else from his time could find the Inn as well, possibly one of the Hobbits which Whitesnake finds so annoying, maybe even the one who will become his particular enemy.

I didn't know that Tolkien didn't like Narnia. I had thought he would have appreciate his friend's Lewes efforts, seen as some of the concepts are quite similiar between the two. Well, just goes to show! I wonder if Lewis knew this?

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Amárië
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I think I'm going to bring in Amárië, as I have been playing her in quite a few threads. Not sure what time period, though, although I'm leaning to the time period after Finrod has left for Middle Earth, so she's a bit sad and heartbroken...sound okay?
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Roll of Honor Varnafindë
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Sounds very much OK!
Very good to have this as a bit more than a twosome.
As she has sat down behind Baru, I suppose it's likely that Whitesnake would be the first to notice her and perhaps hope for a larger audience?

And now, very soon we're going to get into one of the time thingies. How much do you reveal about the past to someone for whom it is still the future?

Whitesnake has been giving out hints, rather than being too specific - is that the way to go for Baru as well? Otherwise, she's able to tell Amarië exactly how long she will need to wait before "Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar."

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Amárië
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Yes, I think hints would work quite well.

I'm guessing Baru also knows her son? He's still fairly young (in Elven years, anyway), but no longer a child. I suppose I should come up with a name for him...would he not have a father name? Or would Finrod have given it to him before he left?

Oh, and I hope Baru speaks Quenya, because Amárië has never even heard Sindarin...

And maybe someone should give her a copy of the Athrabeth... []

It might be interesting if I brought Finrod's son in at some point, too...hmm...oooh, lots of ideas. Or Fëanor, even. []

[ 05-30-2007, 03:36 AM: Message edited by: Amárië ]

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Hamfast Gamgee
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Welcome Amarie! I don't intend Whitesnake to be in the lost inn forever - for no other reason than I might get bored with him after a time - but he will be staying for a while. If you look at some of the past postings, you may notice that Whitesnake has met Beleg Cuthlion at the Inn. But only once. I don't think they got on that well. Whitesnake advised him to beware of Turin, and Beleg told him to get lost! Which just goes to show that sometimes Whitesnake can be correct.

I had actually had thoughts of Turin himself coming in, losing his temper and threatening to kill everyone, but I don't think it would have worked []

I don't really want to make my next posting, unless it is a short one, until I have had a little talk here, because I want to introduce something which some people might think is controversal. I personally don't think it is, but some might, although I don't think either of you two will mind, but you never know.

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Roll of Honor Varnafindë
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quote:
I'm guessing Baru also knows her son?
No, I wouldn't think so. Neither Baru nor her father have been in Valinor, her father was born in Gondolin, and Baru only knows that about Middle-earth which her parents have told her - she's only been there a few weeks herself.

Her father would have told her about Beren and Luthien and about Finrod, though. He was especially interested in the Athrabeth, actually - he copied it at least twice, but I fear his own copy of it got burned along with his house in Rohan * []

So Baru would be interested in discussing such philosophical topics, and she finds that Quenya is better suited for expressing her deep thoughts than Sindarin, while Sindarin is perfectly adequate for ordinary matters. Yes, she is fluent in both, her parents made sure to bring her up bilingual (with Narnian as a third language). She would be delighted at an opportunity to speak Quenya again. []

A good idea to check out your ideas here first, Hamfast - with me it would depend on in which way they were controversial.

* Edit:
Or perhaps he treasured his copy of Athrabeth so much that he made sure to take it along when they fled from the war? In which case Baru may have made her own copy and knows that she's got it back at her room in Tharbad? []

[ 05-30-2007, 06:05 AM: Message edited by: Varnafindë ]

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Amárië
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Would like to hear your ideas, Hamfast!

Varna: Amárië would be interested in the Athrabeth first because it is Finrod, and second because of the ideas. Amárië may be quite innocent and demure, but she's also Finrod's wife, and I'm certain that they had long discussions into the night as well about such things - he wouldn't marry a brainless girl. []

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Roll of Honor Varnafindë
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Perhaps the ideas that Finrod brought into that conversation - apart from those that he got from talking to Andreth during the conversation, of course - are ideas that he had already discussed with his wife []

Yes, I think we need to decide that Rameldir (Baru's father) saved his copy, and that Baru copied it and keeps her own copy back in her room. If she loves it as much as I do (and as she is my Elvish alter ego, she should), she is as likely as he is to bring it along []

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Amárië
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That sounds like a good idea to me!
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Hamfast Gamgee
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Ok, what I would like to do with Whitesnake's tale is to introduce a race of people in, hopefully, a few postings time. Nothing controversal about that, with the exception I would like to make them black. That is black-skinned rather than black in any evil way. Or at least mostly black. They would be basically good people despite the fact that they are in the power of Dol Guldor. But the thing is, it's not really their fault. It just happens that Dol Guldor has some sort of hold over them which they can't get out of, so there choice is to obey Dol Guldor or get exterminated. No-one will help them if they choose not to obey. At least, until now.

This does make these people sound a little like Whitesnake. But there is a difference which is not quite clear at first. It is distinct. This people - who I haven't really decided upon a proper name for yet - do not really like serving for Dol Guldor, or Orcs for that matter, indeed, they have had lots of fights with Orcs over the centuries. But, they, unlike Whitesnake, would in certain circumstances do good and help the downdrodden if they could.

Indeed, Whitesnake doesn't really trust them, which must mean that these guys have some good about them! What I am hoping to happen, is that, during the tale, these people will finally rebel, shake off the shakels of Dol Guldor, change sides and win their freedom. Hopefully in quite a moving way. I would really like to actually state in the text that they are mostly black, rather than just leaving it up to the imagination. At least with one or two characters. I would like to do this, because I really feel that Black people have been very hard done by in fantasy fiction in the past, so I would like to make up to it, in a small way, by giving them a rather interesting role in a tale which I am in.

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Amárië
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My only question - this isn't really supposed to be a RP where we have plots, per se is it?

It seems like having a plot would kind of be against the whole idea of this inn...

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Roll of Honor Varnafindë
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The way I see this Inn, is a place where there would be sections where characters from RPs - and other interested citizens - would meet each other outside of their actual RPs, and where there could be interesting cross-communication because of that. Each such section could be planned to some extent, I suppose, if there's something in particular that the players - and the RP threadmaster in particular - want to happen during their time away from the RP - but the Inn itself doesn't have any other plot than 'people come and go, they talk to each other and leave again'.

Baru and Whitesnake are in one of these 'they talk to other' sections. What's a bit special is that Hamfast is not in an RP outside of the Inn, he is writing a piece of fan-fiction all by himself, and this piece of fan-fiction is what he is plotting now.

Perhaps it is growing a bit large for being played out entirely inside the Inn? It is getting more extensive than I expected it to, to be honest. Which makes it more difficult for Baru to react to after a while.

I assume the Green Dragon could be used for individual fan-fiction as well as just RPs? I made a thread for myself once, for posting one-shots involving my RP characters in situations where they were on their own, without interaction with other RP participants. I called it Pages from a Family History (it's down to page 5 in the Green Dragon now) because all those characters are part of the same invented family.

Perhaps you should start such a thread instead, Hamfast? Whitesnake's adventures could be related in full in there, and then he could have shorter encounters with Baru in here. You could still refer to him telling her his story, but you wouldn't need to spell it out in full - you could even refer to your other thread, especially in this AWA.

What do other people think?

As for your black people, Hamfast, I suppose this would be sufficiently canonical if you place them somewhere in the south-east of Middle-earth - south or south-east of Harad, or perhaps even in a local community in Harad somewhere? The reason why the Necromancer has a hold on them would come up in the story.

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Hamfast Gamgee
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Hmmmmmm,an interesting idea Varna, but might the tale become a little confusing for the reader if it is spread over different threads? I do admit though, it is a bit difficult for Whitesnake to make long conversation at times with no reply from Barufiniel.

Though, mind you, I have known people talk to me long conversations with very little response from me and they haven't seemed to notice []

The only trouble with doing that is I might be forced to double or triple post which some don't like, though I notice that it has been done before in this forum as well as I say it could be a bit confusing.

Amarie the last posting by Varna I think sums up nicely the idea of this inn, people can talk about adventures or their lives with each other here, but I suppose that plots within the Inn itself don't really take place. At least at the moment. That is a rule which could be bended in the future?

As per the black people I am keen to introduce I have to admit I haven't really thought too much about their origins. I suppose that they would have originally come from the south, but might well have migrated through firstly Numenor transportation seen as later on I want to say that they were slaves of the Numenoreans in the Numenorean evil later years, so it is quite conceivable that the Numenoreans practiced mass people transportation and then possibly later transported by the Necromancer. The trouble is that Whitesnake is currently heading towards Mount Gundabad up at the North of the Misty Mountains which is a where I want him to meet them which is a bit far from Khun!

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Roll of Honor Varnafindë
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quote:
but might the tale become a little confusing for the reader if it is spread over different threads?
You would have the tale in the other thread then, and only brief mentioning of it in here. You could even rewrite the posts you've written here to get the complete story in the other thread.

I really think you should do it, especially now when the tale is growing so much. [] You can have an aside thread as well, for use when you want to ask your readers about something and discuss suggestions.

Do you prefer to write it in the first person, like you do when Whitesnake talks to Baru? If you do, it could be like his diary. But it's often easier to write in the third person, like you do when you tell about him in the Lost Inn. In the new thread you could do the whole thing in the third person.

quote:
I have known people talk to me long conversations with very little response from me and they haven't seemed to notice
Some people just love the sound of their own voices []
quote:
The only trouble with doing that is I might be forced to double or triple post which some don't like, though I notice that it has been done before in this forum as well as I say it could be a bit confusing.
It's different in the Green Dragon. Especially in RPs with few players. Double or triple posts may be necessary then. It's not as if we're talking to each other anyway, like we do in most of the other fora. Don't worry about it.

Would it be good for you to have another player in it, though? To make it a little bit more of a standard RP? If so, perhaps I should offer to play an Elf - Baru's father Rameldir, the leader of Elrond's archers at Rivendell, and, as such, as much of an adversary to Whitesnake as Gandalf is [] Then we would really need an aside thread ...

I don't think they would really interact at all, but at times Rameldir might vent his frustration to Elrond, to Gandalf or to himself about the actions of this evasive, irritating man from the East ... You would still be double posting most of the time. And if you prefer to do it all on your own, I won't intrude []
quote:
That is a rule which could be bended in the future?
That would be entirely up to the threadmaster.
quote:
I suppose that they would have originally come from the south, but might well have migrated
Yes, they could have been moved to somewhere else. There would be a back story for them [] If they have been transported up to the very north, that could be a great cause of resentment!
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Hamfast Gamgee
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What I could do perhaps is write a summary of the tale, which I have a fairly good idea of what I am going to write, in a Silmarillion style so it doesn't really have to be a moment to moment narrative just fill in the important points. If I do it that way I could probably write it out in one post. Then maybe we could discuss the ideas?

-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
Actually, I am now feeling a lot better about things, in general.

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Roll of Honor Varnafindë
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Now I'm not quite sure what you want to post where.
If this is going to be a very long discussion, and a long post as part of the discussion, perhaps we should do it in PMs instead - then we wouldn't have to worry about cluttering up this thread.

I sent you a PM about the Lost Inn when we both joined it - if you've still got it, you could answer it []

Oh, btw, the Elves are talking Quenya, not Sindarin. Whitesnake might be more likely to know a little Sindarin, as he says, but even in Quenya he might know the words for 'That's Whitesnake, after him!' []

Edit:
I'll probably be away for the week-end - most likely without net access. If the two of you want to speak to each other, just say that Baru was interpreting. []

[ 06-01-2007, 04:47 PM: Message edited by: Varnafindë ]

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Hamfast Gamgee
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OK, I'll send you a PM, although I'm not really sure about the protocal in those things.
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Roll of Honor Varnafindë
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Now that Barufiniel has spoken again, it's really open for either Whitesnake or Amarië to speak next.
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Amárië
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Amárië will post, but it might be kind of quiet and sad. She doesn't particularly like hearing how much her beloved suffered.
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Roll of Honor Varnafindë
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That's exactly what Barufiniel feared, and why she hesitated for so long [] (plus the fact that I had to search for my copy of the Silmarillion to find the details of his death [] )

I'll wait for Whitesnake to turn up again, and to round off his encounter with Baru, and then I can send her off to fetch the book.

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Create a New Topic  Reply to this Topic Minas Tirith Forums » The Green Dragon » The Lost Inn: A Word Aside (Page 2)
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