Minas Tirith Forums Create a New Topic  Create a New Poll  Reply to this Topic
profile | register |
search | faq | avatars | citizens
donate | about | library
 
Minas Tirith Forums » The Prancing Pony » United Europe? Not so united actualy
Author Topic: United Europe? Not so united actualy
Arien the Maia
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 4219

posted      Profile for Arien the Maia   Author's Homepage   Email Arien the Maia   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
I belong to that generation that heard it's parents talk about the upcomming United Europe. They all seemed very happy about it, as if all the problems of this world would be solved, some even came to believe that Europe would be the new super power ... []
I always wondered why such eagerness from the more solid states of Europe like Germany, France, England wanted to share their money with countries that weren't as efficient, like mine, Greece, for instance.
Plus every time I heard them speak of one United European State I wondered if they are joking, national identity isn't something that can be created because someone wants it to, because we were ordered to consider ourselfs europeans and not french, spanish, greek whatever ...

And nowdays I am in a position to understand that I was -as ever- right and all those hoping for the best, wrong. Today the EU can be seen for what it is, totaly useless. We do not stand united, we do not have common ground and basicly we do not really like each other.
So my question is, can we shoot this old horse now? It obviously serves nobody nowdays.

From: The daily planet | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Roll of Honor pi
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 5374

posted      Profile for pi   Author's Homepage   Email pi   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
I was quite intrigued by it as well. We in the USA also had a lesser version of that with our states. Case in point: in the Civil War, General Robert E. Lee was offered the job of Commanding General of the Union forces, but his loyalty was stronger to his home state of Virginia and when it seceded, so went Lee.
From: Virgo Supercluster, 40º N 75º W | Registered: Mar 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Arien the Maia
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 4219

posted      Profile for Arien the Maia   Author's Homepage   Email Arien the Maia   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
You know, it's not quite the same, because as you say this was a civil war, if France declared war on Greece we wouldn't consider it civil war, just war.
That's the main difference, where America succeded and Europe failed. You americans have common language, common national identity and nothing can take that from you anymore.
Besides, if we look at it historicaly, Europe stand united through the blood of the Americans. I mean that the average american can usualy trace himself back to three or more european roots, way back of course.

From: The daily planet | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Roll of Honor pi
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 5374

posted      Profile for pi   Author's Homepage   Email pi   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
Really?

Indeed, you are correct, which is why I said it was to a lesser degree. If you'd been around here during The White Hand's short but colorful stay, he'd argue that our individual states' sovereignty was exactly the same as your European states. Then he would call you an idiot, and use other sweet and kind remarks to emphasize his intelligence and knowledge. On everything.

That being said, back then an American's loyalty to his/her home state over the country as a whole is still an indicator of the issue. We just didn't have the long history you all did fighting each other with sticks, then rocks, then rocks tied to sticks, then spears, knives and swords, then... [] We were too busy fighting the natives and making gobs of money with our bountiful natural resources.

From: Virgo Supercluster, 40º N 75º W | Registered: Mar 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Arien the Maia
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 4219

posted      Profile for Arien the Maia   Author's Homepage   Email Arien the Maia   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
We just didn't have the long history you all did fighting each other with sticks, then rocks, then rocks tied to sticks, then spears, knives and swords, then...
[] []
Oh dear lord ... you have greek blood in your veins? How on earth do you survive? []
By the way I love being called an idiot, specially when it is calibrated with noble remarks ...
I think I am missing Tuor []
So more seriously you mean to tell me that the first thing that defines a person over there -nationaly speaking of course- is his State and not The States? I didn't know that, but I guess that people want to belong to smaller and bigger groups, the small ones defines us when we enter the larger ones.

From: The daily planet | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Roll of Honor Éomer
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 2824

posted      Profile for Éomer   Email Éomer   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
Go back two hundred years and you'd find more people who thought of themselves as Virginians or Pennsylvanians or Mississippians first, and Americans second. Nowadays it tends to be the other way around. But the American national identity as it exists today wasn't really there through the first century or so of the United States' existence.
From: Serenity | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Arorë Silvertongue
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 3570

posted      Profile for Arorë Silvertongue   Author's Homepage   Email Arorë Silvertongue   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
I suppose the ability to move around or visit places easier (and having relatives) spread out helps somewhat with the national>state thing.

I, for example, have moved around so much, when people ask me where I'm from, it goes kinda like this...

"So, where're you from?"
"The US." "Where in the US?"
"Uh... the US." "So, you moved around a lot, huh? Military kid?"
"Nope, parents just moved around a lot. Northwest, Southwest, central-ish... I'm from the US."

From: Home. For now. | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Roll of Honor Éomer
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 2824

posted      Profile for Éomer   Email Éomer   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
Pretty much the same for me, Arorë, except I was a military brat. I've lived in six different states and one foreign country (Italy). []
From: Serenity | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Elora Starsong
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 2099

posted      Profile for Elora Starsong   Email Elora Starsong   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
I was a military brat. I've lived in six different states and one foreign country (Italy).
Just goes to show that all the broadening of horizons and rounding of character afforded by travel can not hope to de-brat someone.... []

If we're going to compare the US to the EU, there is something else to bear in mind. The EU is still in it's infancy. The US has taken 200 years to get to where it is today. I'm not convinced we're comparing apples with apples with this, but aside from the vast cultural differences between nations, historical differences, ethnic differences, language differences, it would seem that at least 200 years is needed to know if the EU experiment succeeded or not.

It's just too early to say right now and therefore unreasonable to use current status as an indicator of whether the EU experiment worked.

Anyway, I defy anyone to find a truly unified nation. Look close enough, you'll find some healthy disunity anywhere. Nations are comprised of many different groups, all with their own agendas and needs and ideals. Groups of nations are more complex again. I'm not sure how unity could be effectively defined, even if it was time to consider whether the EU is unified successfully.

Just my two non US and non EU cents. []

From: Dancing 'twixt the stars | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Tigranes
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 9076
posted      Profile for Tigranes   Email Tigranes   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
The European Union is a great idea, but it took the wrong turn. Nowadays it's more of a travesty. The enforced monetary union doesn't help (it seems to be extremely bad for weaker countries like Greece), and the oligarchist structure of the EU administrtive system is very dangerous. They're always on the verge of demanding a tax system of their own, and denying members their national sovereignity.

The actual purpose of the EU as it should have been is:
- to prevent any further unnecessary wars between European countries or factions, the most obvious example being WWI.
- to facilitate the lives of citizens of all member countries and to ensure their wellbeing.
- to create solidarity between European countries, so as to prevent things like those that happened several centuries ago, when Greece was abandoned by Western Europe and suffered 500 years of foreign occupation, rape and extortion.
- to ensure certain standards of human rights and protection of the natural environment in all member countries.

From: anywhere | Registered: Nov 2008  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Arien the Maia
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 4219

posted      Profile for Arien the Maia   Author's Homepage   Email Arien the Maia   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
Lady Elora
quote:
If we're going to compare the US to the EU, there is something else to bear in mind. The EU is still in it's infancy. The US has taken 200 years to get to where it is today. I'm not convinced we're comparing apples with apples with this, but aside from the vast cultural differences between nations, historical differences, ethnic differences, language differences, it would seem that at least 200 years is needed to know if the EU experiment succeeded or not.

Yes the EU is in it's infancy but it isn't working for those who live in it, why should we wait around a few hundred years to make sure that we establish that? A good idea is good as long as it serves the people, otherwise it sould be revised.

Lord Tigranes
quote:
The European Union is a great idea, but it took the wrong turn. Nowadays it's more of a travesty. The enforced monetary union doesn't help (it seems to be extremely bad for weaker countries like Greece), and the oligarchist structure of the EU administrtive system is very dangerous. They're always on the verge of demanding a tax system of their own, and denying members their national sovereignity.
Well, yes many things can consist great ideas, but the point is what happens when you putt them to action, and this idea has failed not because it wasn't good but because it wasn't realistic. We disregarded that each european state has it's own growth rythm and no matter how that plays out we'll never be in the same pace.
As for my little country, greece, I don't blame europe for what is happening to us, we did it to ourselfs with eyes wide open. And as of yesterday June first, Greece doesn't belong to the greeks anymore, we signed our country as a collateral in case we don't make the debt payments, and we won't. Greece nowdays belongs -as in is bought by- a few European states, mostly Germany. We are oficialy the first slaves of western society.
quote:
to create solidarity between European countries, so as to prevent things like those that happened several centuries ago, when Greece was abandoned by Western Europe and suffered 500 years of foreign occupation, rape and extortion
We weren't abandoned, it was our war to fight, not Europe's and I think we bore up with Turkish slavery much better than with the european slavery we are dragged into today. Back then all we had to do was lay down our lifes for our country, today you can't fight the enemy, he's invisible.
*rant* i can't beggin to tell you how much the idea of givin up those grounds our ancestors blead to take back from the Turks, bothers me, I feel that we insulte them *rant*

I smile at what EU should have been cause it evolved into being exactely the opposite.

From: The daily planet | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Roll of Honor pi
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 5374

posted      Profile for pi   Author's Homepage   Email pi   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
I'm not convinced we're comparing apples with apples with this
Me either. I was just stirring the pot... []

I had a feeling that Tigranes would rise to the occasion on this one. []

[ 06-02-2011, 10:40 AM: Message edited by: pi ]

-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
The grey rain-curtain turned all to silver glass and was rolled back, and he beheld white shores and beyond them a far green country under a swift sunrise.

From: Virgo Supercluster, 40º N 75º W | Registered: Mar 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Roll of Honor Freya
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 1558

posted      Profile for Freya   Email Freya   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
Tigranes - much sense in your post. It seems that monetary union does indeed harm small countries much more. Germany does great out of all this uncertainty: Euro devalues, and german exports are cheaper. For net importers, like Greece and Portugal, they must lost some standard of living when their purchasing power diminishes.

For us Brits, we're still the economic basket case we always were since 1946, but to some extent we can simply devalue our way out of trouble, thanks to not signing up to the Euro.

From: London | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Arien the Maia
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 4219

posted      Profile for Arien the Maia   Author's Homepage   Email Arien the Maia   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
Which by the way turns out to be the smartest move ever!
I remember when everyone celebrated the Euro , I was wondering why England -who lest's face it when it comes to making money ... they know what they're doing- didn't sign into it. Is it at all possible that they knew better?
In my country the voices that cry for us to leave the EU are getting louder and louder by the day, the greeks are getting tired of being screwed over by their own goverment and by the goverments of the other states. EU must break down now.

From: The daily planet | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Elora Starsong
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 2099

posted      Profile for Elora Starsong   Email Elora Starsong   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
Lady Arien:

quote:
Yes the EU is in it's infancy but it isn't working for those who live in it, why should we wait around a few hundred years to make sure that we establish that?
To avoid throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Here's the thing. Change takes time, and is damned uncomfortable. The bigger the change, the more time (and usually more discomfort) is required.

Uniting the disparate nations and social groups that is the EU is a change of a massive order. How long did it take for one country, such as the UK, to unite? Or Scotland? Or indeed any nation in the EU? Generations, centuries.... so we we're attempting to unite all those nations, how long do you guess it might take?

The answer is: a very long time.

This is not to make light of the difficulties change of such a magnitude engenders. The last thing I wish to convey is that people need to just suck it up and get on with things. It is bloody difficult, and many people are truly suffering in the EU.

Still, I believe it is far too early to know whether unification is achievable by the EU and nigh on impossible to identify what unification might look like so as to determine whether it has occurred.

And, I can't help but look around for some perspective. As tough as things are in the EU, it ain't in the realm of the baby farm discovered recently in Nigeria - the owners were using teenage girls aged 15 to 17 to farm babies for sale to desperate parents or for local witchcraft rites. Now, there's just one horror and that isn't the worst of what is happening in the world today. There are problems and then there are PROBLEMS.

Will EU unification solve all the problems in the world - no way! Not even close. Does that mean it isn't worth a shot? Well, I'm not qualified to be the judge of that. []

From: Dancing 'twixt the stars | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Arien the Maia
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 4219

posted      Profile for Arien the Maia   Author's Homepage   Email Arien the Maia   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
I do see you point I really do, but what most fail to notice is that the EU is war, not a state. It's goal is not to unite us but to enslave us, to make us row the boat chained to our seats.
I am against the gathering of power towards one control center, and this is what europe is turning into for the states in it. No lesser divisions, states are better than coalitions and union. The lesser countries loose steadily and the more solid ones win more everyday.

Maybe you didn't see my post about Greece having being sold *sold* to Germany and France, the same Greece that we have blead for thousands of years against all possible enemies to keep our own, has been sold to buy out the virtual depts that our traitors of a goverment created. So no, europe doesn't have the time to wait and see what happens in the future, from a Union of people and ideas it is turning into an institution of enslavement and control.

From: The daily planet | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Hamfast Gamgee
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 5528

posted      Profile for Hamfast Gamgee   Author's Homepage   Email Hamfast Gamgee   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
Anyone want to talk about the French election?
From: Bagshot Row, Hobbiton, The Shire! | Registered: Sep 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Aiwrendel
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 965

posted      Profile for Aiwrendel   Author's Homepage   Email Aiwrendel   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
Or Brexit?
From: Chicago USA | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Roll of Honor Freya
Guard of the Citadel
Citizen # 1558

posted      Profile for Freya   Email Freya   New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post 
Some old faces here. Miss MT!
From: London | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Create a New Topic  Create a New Poll  Reply to this Topic Minas Tirith Forums » The Prancing Pony » United Europe? Not so united actualy
 - Printer-friendly view of this topic       The Red Arrow!       Admin Options: Make Topic Sticky   Close Topic   Move Topic   Delete Topic

About  ~ • ~  Contact  ~ • ~  Minas Tirith  ~ • ~  F. A. Q.  ~ • ~  Help

Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classic™ 6.6.1