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Minas Tirith Forums » The Prancing Pony » Minimum Wage Laws (Page 6)
Author Topic: Minimum Wage Laws
Grimwulf Stormspear
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Citizen # 5157
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Q: Why isn’t there a Nobel Prize for social psychology?
A: They already have one for literature.


The anti-intellectualism of Elora’s post arrests the mind. [] [] [] She mocks “some foreign type” and “his theory,” as if neoclassical economic analysis were something I dreamed up on my lunch break as part of a Byzantine plot to establish a Yankee regency Down Under.

Elora incorrectly suggests that she is countering my theory. However, the debate is not Elora vs. Grimwulf. It is more like Elora vs. Alfred Marshall, Carl Menger, Jacob Mincer, P.T. Bauer, Yale Brozen, Martin Feldstein, Finis Welch, Walter Williams, Gary Becker*, James Buchanan*, George Stigler*, Milton Friedman*, F.A. Hayek*, Robert Lucas*, Ronald Coase*, Thomas Sowell, and literally thousands of other economists (including most Australian economists). In fact, the situation is worse than that. It is more like Elora vs. economic analysis.

 -

Look at this graph. Think about. Is there a mistake? Is there some element that is not relevant to Australian labor markets? Is there any honest way to avoid the conclusion that raising the minimum wage will have a disemployment effect among low-skilled workers?

Even Joseph Stiglitz, chairman of Clinton’s Council of Economic Advisors (1995-1997) has written:

quote:
Price floors have predictable effects too… If government attempts to raise the minimum wage higher than the equilibrium wage, the demand for workers will be reduced and the supply increased. There will be an excess supply of labor. Of course, those who are lucky enough to get a job will be better off at the higher wage than at the market equilibrium wage; but there are others, who might have been employed at the lower market equilibrium wage, who cannot find employment and are worse off.
Notice that Stiglitz did not say, “in America, Canada, & Europe,” or “in the Northern Hemisphere.” It’s a general statement about labor markets. But Elora wants to avoid economic reasoning — and rational thought in general — by invoking identity politics. “I’m an Australian,” she sniffs, “and only Australians can understand Australian labor markets. Anyone who tells you otherwise is an evil American imperialist.”

Okay, okay, she didn’t use those words, but it is the attitude she conveys. I have asked her if there is any particular feature of Australian labor markets that makes the standard, accepted economic analysis inapplicable. She offers not one example of Australian exceptionalism. Why not?

She has claimed:

quote:
So, do minimum wages cause higher youth unemployment? They do not cause that.
However, she provides no evidence to back up this claim. Why not?

She asks me to provide evidence that minimum wage laws do affect youth unemployment levels in Australia. I have provided references to dozens of studies in labor markets around the world, creating a prima facie presumption that minimum wages do in fact affect youth unemployment levels in Australia. No, she wants more evidence, direct evidence.

I point out that the last five years show an unusually high ratio of youth unemployment to adult unemployment for a period of full employment. No, while 18 months is enough when she is trying to make a point, she wants more than five years.

I point to earlier studies that show the predicted correlation at very high confidence levels. No, she wants more evidence. And better evidence. How much more? She doesn’t say. Better how? She doesn’t say. Why does she call these studies “poor”? She doesn’t say.

What does she think of my critique of her case-by-case methodology? She doesn’t say.

What she does say is that she has a “working expertise” in the Australian labor market. Maybe. I’d like to see some evidence.

 -


* Indicates Nobel laureate. []

-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
Furthermore, it is my opinion that Obamacare must be repealed.

From: The central lake-lands of the Great Peninsula. | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Elora Starsong
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Grimwulf, if you're going to fabricate BS to justify your vitriol, then be my guest. Don't expect me to participate though. []

Enjoy yourself.

From: Dancing 'twixt the stars | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Grimwulf Stormspear
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Hey, if you’re not gonna use logic or evidence, we’re better off without ya. []
From: The central lake-lands of the Great Peninsula. | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Elora Starsong
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What, you annoyed that I ain't gonna reward your poor behaviour with a considered response?

Well, I have a tip for ya. Get used to disappointment. You'll confront it a lot.

Meanwhile, consider yourself a subject of a negative reinforcement conditioning program.

Step outside of your own ego, read what you actually said and consider why the individual it was pointed at squarely found your comments spiteful and indicative of bullying/

Now, if you want to continue that, be my guest. If it means that others pull away, to leave to your intellectual masturbation, then that is by your own hand (pun most definately intended).

Or, if you don't want to be ignored and want me to actually discuss this with you, consider a more civil approach. Consider also, reviewing PARTICIPATION RATES in concert with unemployment rates.

I chose how to spend my time here, and I chose who to respond to. I chose to not reward your behaviour with further discussion.


How you proceed is up to you.

From: Dancing 'twixt the stars | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Grimwulf Stormspear
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Elora, I gave you every chance to engage in rational discussion. Instead, you chose to invoke your alleged expertise as a trump card. [] Well, it didn’t work. In the end, all I did was highlight your evasions. If I had wanted to be vindictive, I certainly could have done so. Trust me: I edited out the really biting remarks.
From: The central lake-lands of the Great Peninsula. | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Elora Starsong
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Obviously, you find it impossible to set your own biases aside. As I said, how you chose to proceed is something you are entirely accountable for.

You are committed to your decision. Therefore, cease immediately addressing any further comment to me. You are not at all interested in a dialogue. Therefore, I am not at all interested in further interaction with you.

Consider this my final word on the matter. My decision is made also.

Done.

From: Dancing 'twixt the stars | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Roll of Honor Wandering Tuor
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quote:
[W]e’re better off without ya. []
We referring to all those citizens other than Elora still participating in this "discussion", I guess.

 -

From: My place | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Grimwulf Stormspear
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Well, WT, compared to the high-handed obfuscation Elora has provided for us, le silence est d’or. []
From: The central lake-lands of the Great Peninsula. | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Elora Starsong
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Go on, WT... admit it... you are better off without me interacting with an individual who refers to himself with either the royal "we" or in the literal collective sense - which beg a whole heap of questions for some future court appointed psychiatrist to get to the bottom of. []

It's OK.... you can say it... []

From: Dancing 'twixt the stars | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Roll of Honor Wandering Tuor
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Oh, I'll get by just fine if this thread dies, but I didn't want Feculent Crapweasel's assertion that "many people are done with Elora" to go unchallenged.

E: Or should I say -

Oh, I'll get by just fine
if this thread dies,
but I didn't want Feculent Crapweasel's
assertion that
"many people are done with Elora"
to go unchallenged.

Wandering Tuor

[ 05-29-2007, 04:21 PM: Message edited by: Wandering Tuor ]

From: My place | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Amárië
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I just want to second WT's assertion, and say for the record that I, also, am not "done" with Elora.

WT - wow. Writing it that way makes you seem so much more intelligent, profound and literary. I respect you so much more now.

[ 05-29-2007, 04:04 PM: Message edited by: Amárië ]

From: Mishawaka, IN | Registered: Aug 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Roll of Honor Wandering Tuor
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Indeed. And if I translate
homely English axioms into French,
I will sound even more
impressive. But that
will have to wait.

Wandering Tuor

From: My place | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Eluchil
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Actually, that scares me - is the Bëar the sockpuppet of the Wanderer, or is it the opposite ? [] []

*for the record, is also not done with Elora*

From: Menegroth, deep under the sea | Registered: May 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Elora Starsong
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[]

Thanks folks.... and for the record, I am not done with you or the vast majority of this site. Though, I am certain no few wish it were otherwise. []

From: Dancing 'twixt the stars | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Snöwdog
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...and California goes for $15/Hr minimum wage!
From: In the Shadows of Annuminas | Registered: Aug 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Nash Rómerandir
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Citizen # 2903

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Arf... Should have checked the dates of the posts above Snowdog's... Would have avoided making a comment about something which is already 9 year old.

[ 04-01-2016, 04:20 PM: Message edited by: Nash Rómerandir ]

From: Cuiviénen (well, people call this place France) | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Alcuin
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 -
From: formerly New England (sigh) | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
faithfull
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Citizen # 11417

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In my humble opinion, we need a paradigm change in our thinking about this subject (ehrmm, "minimum wage", not being "done" with Elora, whom I find lovely).

Changes of this sort are best accomplished through fresh vocabulary and pertinent questions (well, impertinent questions also work). []

I believe we should look at what constitutes a "living wage", and I believe we should all be asking, who should work full time, and still not be able to afford a roof over their head for themselves and kids, with money left for food and other necessities? That is the question that each community needs to address.

Oh, and as for the above cartoon, I am reminded of the humble bumble bee. []

From: East of the sun, West of the moon | Registered: Oct 2014  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
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