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Minas Tirith Forums » The Prancing Pony » Minimum Wage Laws (Page 5)
Author Topic: Minimum Wage Laws
Talan
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Grimwulf, I don't really agree with Nash's rationale, but if you're going to respond so abrasively, I think you should at least explain why. I know it gets tiresome arguing with the same people over and over again (I have been arguing/debating with Nash far longer than you), but any degree of clear disrespect you show to someone on a bulletin board requires some form of justification. By that I mean, "This is why I'm ignoring/dismissing the statement of person X."

[ 05-03-2007, 11:08 PM: Message edited by: Talan ]

From: Austin, TX. Home of awesome. | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Grimwulf Stormspear
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Fine, Talan. [] I continue to ignore Nash because he continues to address me in an abusive, undignified fashion, as witnessed in his last post. [] I do not reward such incivility with a response. [] Despite the great satisfaction I would reap in exposing his errors, I simply refuse to lower myself for the satisfaction of a churlish miscreant. []
From: The central lake-lands of the Great Peninsula. | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Roll of Honor Adulithien
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quote:
ignores French troll demonstrating his remarkable ignorance
I fail to see what's ignorant about insisting that laws are only necessary because of those who act irresponsibly. []
From: Austin | Registered: May 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Nash Rómerandir
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Talan, if you wish to know what Britney is so rattled about, I must suggest you to take a look here... []

Nevermind Addie, I take it as a joke to be called ignorant by the likes of Britney, those who can't see why a good plan never survives the battlefield, those who don't see the difference between theory and reality. [sarcasm]After all, I must be completely ignorant of micro and macro-economics, it's not as if I had studied them for 2 years during my Executive MBA at ISG Paris[/sarcasm] []

[ 05-03-2007, 11:58 PM: Message edited by: Nash Rómerandir ]

From: Cuiviénen (well, people call this place France) | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Roll of Honor Adulithien
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[]


Nash, are you coming to Athene's party? Please PM me... I miss talking with you! []

Erm... and now back to your regularly scheduled political slugfest! []

From: Austin | Registered: May 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Grimwulf Stormspear
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Adulthien: The French troll demonstrates his ignorance by claiming:

quote:
If ... people were inherently good then the law of markets would be enough to put everything to equilibrium. But we all know people are not inherently good, a lot are greedy, selfish, dishonest and only think short-term... And it’s because of those people that laws are necessary.
Markets, in fact, are important precisely because people are morally & intellectually limited. [] Intellectuals who recognize the limitations of human nature are generally more conservative & pro-market than those with an elastic view of human nature. This theme has been developed by Thomas Sowell (A Conflict of Visions) and Nobel laureate F.A Hayek (Chapter 14, The Constitution of Liberty).

Adam Smith, for examples, defended the liberal market order while excoriating the practices & motives of businessmen. [] Free market capitalism is a system of political economy that restrains self-interest & even redirects it to the promotion of the public good. It is not a system that depends on good intentions, unlike socialism, which depends on the benevolent will & near-omniscient knowledge of the commissars & planners.

Most economic models assume (for modeling purposes) that individual agents act in their own self-interest. [] Here in America, the professors I have worked with usually cover that basic fact during the first week or two of undergraduate economics classes, which may be one reason why we don’t celebrate 8.4% unemployment as a wonderful improvement.

Additionally, the observation that the wage floor increases unemployment among low-skilled workers is supported by a mountain of evidence. [] It is not just a theoretical conclusion; it is a theoretical conclusion affirmed by an abundance of empirical data.


As an aside, when some crazed Frenchman spews anti-American vitriol, I do not think it is unfair or impolite to ask said Gallic menace to show restraint, explaining that the American military had, after all, saved his snail-eating countrymen twice within the last century. I don’t know why he took offense. [] Perhaps because English in not his native language & he misread the post. Possibly because logical analysis is not his close friend. Perchance he confused my post with a more aggressive post by another Citizen. Or maybe he simply lives by that old motto, so typical of the Left: “Cet animal est très méchant. Quand on l’attaque il se défend.”

Whatever the case, I have apologized for my part in the misunderstanding, now more than a year-and-a-half old, as much as I honorably can. [] He has chosen not to accept the apology, and continues to use abusive language when addressing me. I have responded in the manner that seems to me most gentlemanly.

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Furthermore, it is my opinion that Obamacare must be repealed.

From: The central lake-lands of the Great Peninsula. | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Elora Starsong
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Just a thought.

If resolution of conflict is what you seek, responding in kind to perceived vitirol is not going to bring you what you seek.

Though it's a natural response, it won't lead you to resolution. It will lead, in fact, in the opposite direction - continuation and possible escalation of conflict.

So, what do you want to achieve? Resolution, or victory? It's up to you.

Maybe it's more important to you to be right. Maybe it's more important to you to bury the hatchet.

From: Dancing 'twixt the stars | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Roll of Honor Adulithien
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quote:
restrains self-interest & even redirects it to the promotion of the public good.
Right. Like the market restrained the guy at Enron, and like it restrained Big Oil from taking an additional 6% of working families' entire annual income in poorer Southern states, in order to post record profits that quarter. Like it restrains other American companies from attempting to tax RAINWATER in certain South American countries. Like it restrained factory owners from mutilating children in order to fix textile equipment. Like it restrained railroad companies from killing thousands of essentially enslaved Chinese. Like it restrained three Colorado coal companies from burning women and children alive in order to break a strike. Or maybe like it restrains mining companies from ripping up graveyards and homes in Kentucky because the landowners' forbears were duped into selling the mineral rights, not knowing that those preclude the land rights they did not sell.

I admire your idealism, but you must be out of your mind.

From: Austin | Registered: May 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Nash Rómerandir
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Britney,

I will not adress the first part of your post, which shows the lack of ability to differenciate between theory and reality I already mentionned above. I won't lose my time explaining why you're wrong, you're too far gone.

quote:
As an aside, when some crazed Frenchman spews anti-American vitriol
If you consider saying that torture was an excess of war which can be predicted and that Bush's a warmonger is "anti-american vitriol" then you've never heard an anti-american in your life Britney...
quote:
I don’t know why he took offense.
Well, I thought my explanation in the other thread I linked to in my previous post here was clear enough. Apparently not... Regardless how you read my post, calling my ancestors cowards was uncalled for, and it was even more uncalled for because completely unrelated to the matter at hand.
quote:
Perhaps because English in not his native language & he misread the post.[...]Perchance he confused my post with a more aggressive post by another Citizen.
If there's something I never misread it's sarcasm and mockery. Since your post was in direct answer to the post where I mentionned my grand-father's ordeal during WWII (I remember that you even quoted the part in question, so you can't say you didn't "see" it) there is little doubt what your meaning was. If that's not what you intended to say then I suggest you reconsider your command of your own language...
quote:
Possibly because logical analysis is not his close friend.
Coming from you I can only answer thus: []
quote:
Whatever the case, I have apologized for my part in the misunderstanding, now more than a year-and-a-half old, as much as I honorably can. He has chosen not to accept the apology
I don't think anyone would have accepted your so-called "apology" in the form it took...
quote:
continues to use abusive language when addressing me. I have responded in the manner that seems to me most gentlemanly.
Besides calling you Britney, which isn't "abusive language" AFAIK (at least nearly not as harsh as the contempt I hold you in would grant), I have only used "abusive language" (which I'd rather call "taunts") in answer to your own use of derogatory terms when adressing me. "Chuldish", "troll", "ignorant", "crazed", "menace" (add to this list those words I didn't think about) if that's what you call "gentlemenly manners" then I could definitely teach you a bit of savoir-vivre.
Your passive-agressive behavior doesn't deceive anyone (but you?). Just don't try to pretend being surprised when you get a much less hypocritical answer to that kind of behavior from me.
quote:
his snail-eating countrymen
This is exactly the kind of comment which made you earn the nickname Britney. Such a thing, said in good humor, could be funny... But, when it smells of badly veiled sarcasm, such low blows only make you sound like trailer-park-white-trash. If you can't see that, you're even farther gone than I thought you were.

Now, I'll consider this matter settled. I won't adress it again unless you force me to (by such childish behavior as posting only to say you ignore me and calling me ignorant for example). You'll have to live with me calling you Britney however... []

[ 05-04-2007, 04:53 PM: Message edited by: Nash Rómerandir ]

From: Cuiviénen (well, people call this place France) | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Grimwulf Stormspear
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Elora: I have not responded in kind. I have not responded with gratuitous name-calling. How exactly do you suggest I should reply to such name-calling?


Adulithien: I have two quick responses before I go.

  1. There are horror stories from illiberal societies as well, and many are much, much worse. Overall, free-market economies are better for everyone, including the poor.
  2. Some of the examples you describe are not market transactions at all.

Any reasonable, empirical, real-world comparison makes market freedom very, very attractive to genuinely compassionate social reformers.

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Furthermore, it is my opinion that Obamacare must be repealed.

From: The central lake-lands of the Great Peninsula. | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Eluchil
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In my company (remember, a central bank), we usually say that we need - minimum - one economist to translate (political euphemism) what an econometrist says ...

My 2 cents []

[ 05-04-2007, 06:18 PM: Message edited by: Eluchil ]

From: Menegroth, deep under the sea | Registered: May 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Talan
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quote:
Fine, Talan. I continue to ignore Nash because he continues to address me in an abusive, undignified fashion, as witnessed in his last post. I do not reward such incivility with a response. Despite the great satisfaction I would reap in exposing his errors, I simply refuse to lower myself for the satisfaction of a churlish miscreant.
I may not know your history with Nash in the most specific terms. But I can tell you that as a conservative on this board, I know I'm really in the minority--at least, in the minority of conservatives who are willing to stick up for themselves and support their opinions with facts and reasons. Actually, I may be overstating my credentials--I can't always find the time or resources to defend my opinions.

But the fact is, no matter which side of the aisle you belong to (and I'm talking to both of you; I don't care who started it or who continued it), responding to childish insults with childish insults is the very least productive thing you can do. Can you call someone out on their childish behavior? Sure you can. But responding in kind only creates a back-and-forth cycle of ridiculous ad hominem attacks. At the very least, reacting with a calm and reasonable demeanor makes you better than an opponent who insists on using these ad hominem attacks. Usually, in fact, a calm and measured response frustrates and humiliates the attacker--drawing a stark contrast between your behavior and theirs.

Responding to a personal attack with another personal attack is understandable at an emotional level. But the difference between debate and argument is the degree to which one allows emotion to drive one's arguments. The best weapon against a verbally abusive attack is a respectful and reasonable response--it renders emotionally charged/unreasonable arguments impotent, and leaves the person who made them looking, at the least, silly, and at the most, idiotic.

I've taken part in many silly, angry and personal quibbles on this board, and I can only tell you that they lead nowhere.

I like to think that there are people on this board who disagree with me yet do not disrespect me, if only because I show them the respect they deserve. And on some occasions, maybe more.

On a bulletin board, words come easy and accountability is limited to the persona you choose to project. The only way to gain respect is to give it, even when it may not be deserved. Egotism is easy to project, hiding behind a shield of anonymity; but through humility, showing your vulnerability and fallability, you actually become more difficult a target to attack. The internet is a world of powerful egos, but those powerful egos don't know how to deal with a person who doesn't take everything personally. Hurtful remarks are the only way they know how to make an impact on their opponents.

I'm not sure what else to say. I'm pretty tired right now; I'm a little bit drained from dealing with finals. Maybe I'll look at this post tomorrow and think myself a bit of an idiot, but I think I've said what I needed to say.

Peace out. []

[ 05-04-2007, 10:01 PM: Message edited by: Talan ]

From: Austin, TX. Home of awesome. | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
White Gold Wielder
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This is a pretty simple case. If you start dishing it out, then you need to be able to take it. If you don't realize that you're dishing it out, here's your wakeup.

You know how it takes two people to have a fight, right? If you want to keep responding, then quit complaining about the fight you are actively participating in. If you want the fight to end, stop responding to the other person. Then if one of you wants to complain that the other won't leave you alone, you'll actually have a case and I can start dishing out the justice.

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Elora Starsong
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'Nuff said, methinks. []


Back to topic.... when it comes to minimum wage discussions and theories, there are many theories that need to be considered.

Certainly, economic theory has a place - but not to the exclusion of other theories. For example, one might also consider theories pertaining to the Frontier of Control within industrial relations or employment relations theorum. Now, that's just the most obvious theory that leapt to mind. There are a host of others.

What occurs to me is that you can pull theories at 20 paces till the cows come home. Theories are all well and good. I like theories, being a science type sorta person. What I notice in this discussion is that theories are battling, but so is experiential anecdotes. The variance between theory and practice is considerable. No one theory can account for all labour market events, movements and behaviour. So championing one theory is a lame horse to be riding, from my point of view.

If we want to talk meaningfully about minimum wages, and get beyond the exclusively theoretical ether, it would help if we focused on a particular labour market. The evidence cited from one labour market to support or nullify a theory/theorum doesn't necessarily correspond to other labour markets. This is an international message board, with people from all over the world and lots of very different labour markets participating.

So, some clarity would be helpful.

Which labour market are we analysing minimum wages in?

Are people to remain locked in theoretical discussion, or are they expected to produce data to support their hypothesis and nullifying another's, or is simply discussion of anecdotal evidence sufficent?

From: Dancing 'twixt the stars | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Grimwulf Stormspear
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Pace Elora, I see no reason to abandon economic analysis in favor of some unnamed theoretical framework. [] Maybe Elora has some great analytical model behind Door Number Two, but I’d like to see it first.

Nor do I see a considerable divergence between theory & practice. Neoclassical theory predicts an increase in unemployment among low-skilled workers as the wage floor rises. Numerous studies confirm this prediction. [] Empirical evidence suggests that “minimum wage” laws do not guarantee a minimum wage, because they do not guarantee employment; in fact they discourage employment among low-skilled workers.

These results — disemployment among low-skilled workers — have obtained in the U.S., but also in Canada, Chile, Colombia, Costa Rica, France, Indonesia, Puerto Rico, and South Africa. In South Africa, racist all-white unions supported minimum-wage laws for black workers as a way to prevent competition from low-skilled black workers. [] Minimum-wage laws supported apartheid.

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Furthermore, it is my opinion that Obamacare must be repealed.

From: The central lake-lands of the Great Peninsula. | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Elora Starsong
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I dare say a lot of laws supported apartheid...

I can present you with alternate theorums which have something to offer for consideration in minimum wage formation and effect. However, those theorums have been tested in labour markets you have not listed. So, I have no comment to offer regarding those labour markets you list.

I leave you to your discussion. I needs must attend to the labour market here, in Australia. Monday has dawned.

From: Dancing 'twixt the stars | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Grimwulf Stormspear
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Just wondering here, Elora, but do you have any reason to think that the wage floor in Australia & New Zealand does not increase unemployment among low-skilled workers? [] []
From: The central lake-lands of the Great Peninsula. | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Elora Starsong
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Yup - Australia has achieved full employment for the past 18 months. Unemployment in skilled, unskilled or age group sectors has fallen, not increased.

As for New Zealand, why would I care about them? []

They're New Zealand, after all... []

From: Dancing 'twixt the stars | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Grimwulf Stormspear
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The joy of stats… []

Elora, perhaps I should have been more careful in my phrasing. [] I could have asked: Do you have any reason to think that the wage floor in Australia & New Zealand does not increase unemployment among low-skilled workers ceteris paribus?

You point to “full employment” as evidence that the wage floor does not have a disemployment effect on low-skilled workers. However, the annual unemployment rate for Australia over the last five years has ranged from about 3.5 to 4.0 times higher for workers aged 15-19 than for the general work force. [] Annual youth unemployment has not been less than 20.1%, which is an oddly high number for “full employment.” In fact, this level of unemployment during a period of “full employment” would suggest that the wage floor is having a negative impact on employment for low-skilled workers. (Data.)

In a corrected form of a 2004 paper published in the Australian Economic Review, economist Andrew Leigh estimates the labor elasticity for workers aged 15-19 at -0.491, meaning that a 10% increase in the wage floor corresponds to a decrease in youth employment of about 5%. (Here.) [] Likewise, economist Des Moore has written that “The evidence of negative effects of a minimum wage on employment from other countries is broadly consistent with the limited Australian studies of minimum wage effects.” (Here.) Apparently, Australian labor markets are not as unique as has been suggested.

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Furthermore, it is my opinion that Obamacare must be repealed.

From: The central lake-lands of the Great Peninsula. | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Elora Starsong
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Yes, stats - garbage in, roses out for the spin doctors - particularly in the reporting of unemployment figures.

Grimwulf, to understand the context of any labour market, you must look broader than the past 5 years in data.

Australia's labour market stats are complex creatures, firstly because there are many definitions of unemployment depending on how bean counters and government bodies categorise forms of employment and work related study. The goal posts shift over time.

Push your own horizons back say 15 years, you will find that youth unemployment soared to levels that were appalling - up as high in some regional areas as 54%. Was this due to minimum wages?

HELL NO!

It was due to structural unemployment brought about as a result of the "recession" Australia apparently had to have according to it's federal government of the time.

Now, economic policies have changed since the 1990's - minimum wages have remained.

Unemployment rates are also, Grimwulf, utterly meaningless unless you also calculate the participation rate.

Youth unemployment has dropped markedly, even by the studies you produced, as economic and government policy activity has changed and developed, definitions of unemployment have also shifted over time. But minimum wages have remained in place.

So, do minimum wages cause higher youth unemployment? They do not cause that.

No.

You can't cite two piddly studies in an attempt to tell a person who has been working and studying this very labour market, and participating in it, for 20 years that she doesn't know what she is talking about. []

There is a very good reason why the courts of my nation request that I analyse and report on the labour market and provide medicolegal reports of same.

About your sources further more - not all that robust, mate, when it comes to labour market analysis. If I used those, I'd be thrown out of court. []

You'll have to try again.

But I do thank you for not lumping my labour market and nation in with another's (new Zealand). Downright decent of you. []

From: Dancing 'twixt the stars | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Wetwang
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It'll be interesting to see what effect the raising of the minimum wage in the USA by 40% will have on the low wage / low skill sector of the employment market.
I'm willing to bet the effect will be very little to none.

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Keep the earth under your feet, & clay on your fingers; wisdom in your bones, & have both eyes open!
That's Mr Wang™ to you!
This place would be a paradise tomorrow if every department had a supervisor with a submachine gun.

This bog is thick and easy...

From: West Sussex UK, well on the seafront in Bognor Regis actually! | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Elora Starsong
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Over here, some business tend to let people go initially, and blame the IR law changes in minimum wages.... but a review of each case usually indicates that they were planning to cut their labour force anyway for other reasons (earlier revenue/operating profit shrinkage is usually the culprit) prior to the changes.

In the balance, overall, no substantive movement in unemployment stats are seen across the nation following changes. And, usually, those business that let people go whilst blaming the laws, tend to hire people back again when work load picks up and they don't have enough people to bring in the revenue they need for the profit they want to make.

Lots of business, big and medium and small, know that people are perhaps one of the most costly capital about, and make a quid by slashing their workforce quickly - and many of those businesses have found that their short term gain comes at a high price. It's hard to find people, expensive and time consuming, and then train them up, in time to make a move and bring in those extra dollars through expansion when you have mazed out the smaller workforce you retained after your cost cutting exercise.

But business often fail to calculate such things in..... and so the story goes. Can't see the forest for the trees, when it comes to employees, more often than not.

From: Dancing 'twixt the stars | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Grimwulf Stormspear
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Facts are stubborn things. So are some people. []


Elora writes:
●●●●● Grimwulf, to understand the context of any labour market, you must look broader than the past 5 years in data. ●●●●●

One post earlier, Elora wrote:
●●●●● Australia has achieved full employment for the past 18 months. Unemployment in skilled, unskilled or age group sectors has fallen, not increased. ●●●●●

IOW, Elora can prove her point in 18 months, but five years is not enough data to question her “conclusions.” [] Once again, Elora has provided no evidence to support her position, while criticizing — no, mocking without real criticism — the evidence I have provided. Instead, we are treated to empty authority claims.

If Elora is correct, what I would like is, first, a body of evidence that shows that there is no correlation between relevant variables. [] For example, she should be able to show that the ratio of youth unemployment to adult unemployment does not have a positive correlation with the ratio of the minimum wage to average hourly wages. If she cannot provide such evidence, she should show a little more humility in making her claims.

Second, I would like an explanation of why Australian labor markets do not respond to changes in prices (wages). [] If Elora is correct, how does she explain the unusual situation in which the quantity of labor demanded does not fall when the price of labor is artificially raised? How on Earth does she explain this alleged anomaly?

It does no good for her to point to statistics that indicate that unemployment varies in response to variables other than the wage floor. [] No serious analyst would contend that if Independent Variables B, C, D, & E affect Dependent Variable X, then Independent Variable A must not affect X.

Of course recessions affect the level of unemployment. [] So do wage floors. In fact, a wage floor will tend to exacerbate the disemployment effect of any given recession among low-skilled workers. Such was the case in the U.S. in the early 1980s, when a recession combined with a recent increase in the wage floor to produce levels of unemployment around 80% for black teens in certain inner-city labor markets. I have to believe that the wage floor in Australia must have increased the disemployment effect of recessions there, as well — unless of course Elora is able explain why Australia is the only industrialized democracy in the world where the Law of Demand does not apply to labor markets.

Over the years, Mankind has discovered at least one useful way to study labor markets — labor economics. [] Mankind has also discovered any number of counterproductive ways to study labor markets. Elora hints at one such approach when she refers to “a review of each case.” Such a case-by-case method is a paradigm case of how not to study labor markets.

First, such an approach ignores the nature of job losses in existing firms caused by the minimum wage. Obviously, such losses will be concentrated among companies experiencing minimal or negative growth, because those firms are not experiencing increasing demand for labor. Firms that are experiencing increasing demand will be able to maintain or even increase their workforce despite increased labor costs. Thus, the very factors that predict a firm’s likelihood of cutting its low-skilled workforce in response to an increase in the wage floor are the factors that Elora can point to claim that the cuts would have happened anyway.

Second, such an approach may miss job losses caused by shop closings. An increase in the minimum wage will drive some marginal shops out of business if they depend heavily on low-skilled labor. These job losses may not be examined — much less counted — in a case-by-case analysis. And even if they are examined, one can always claim that the closings would have happened anyway, even if the case were otherwise.

Third, and most important, a case-by-case approach does not count job losses among new jobs. IOW, this approach does not count the new jobs that would have resulted from planned expansions that were cancelled or delayed because the positions suddenly became more expensive to fill. Nor does it take into account new shops or new firms that cancelled or delayed plans for openings because of a sudden, artificial increase in labor costs.

More than 150 years ago, Frédéric Bastiat showed economists the importance of noticing what is not seen. [] Other disciplines would do well to learn that lesson.

[ 05-26-2007, 07:32 PM: Message edited by: Grimwulf Stormspear ]

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Furthermore, it is my opinion that Obamacare must be repealed.

From: The central lake-lands of the Great Peninsula. | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Elora Starsong
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Nice try, no banana.

This is my weekend. That means that I don't go trawling through 60 years of available stats to argue some point with some foreign type on some message board about how his theory doesn't in fact translate to practise in the labour market that is the centre of my working expertise. []

You were able to find some rather limited studies, yourself, Grim. Participatation rates and unemployment rates have been studied hand in hand by the Australian Bureau of Stats for a while now.

I'd suggest that is your first port of call.

Google it yourself. You made the assertion that minimum wages influence unemployment rates. You find the evidence - and do a proper job of it too (2 poor studies are not a proper job) - or give up your assertion and find something else to do with your free time.

It's up to you. In Australia and the US, the burden of proof lies on the prosecution.

Oh, and whilst your teaching lessons - here's one for you to consider learning yourself - humility. []

[ 05-26-2007, 11:35 PM: Message edited by: Elora Starsong ]

From: Dancing 'twixt the stars | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Grimwulf Stormspear
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From: The central lake-lands of the Great Peninsula. | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
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