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Minas Tirith Forums » The Prancing Pony » Minimum Wage Laws (Page 3)
Author Topic: Minimum Wage Laws
Roll of Honor Wandering Tuor
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Well, well . . . look what the cat dragged in.

E: and dragged back out again, apparently. []

[ 04-13-2007, 01:55 PM: Message edited by: Wandering Tuor ]

From: My place | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Wetwang
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Aw! And there was me thinking you didn't care Mr T []
[]

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Keep the earth under your feet, & clay on your fingers; wisdom in your bones, & have both eyes open!
That's Mr Wang™ to you!
This place would be a paradise tomorrow if every department had a supervisor with a submachine gun.

This bog is thick and easy...

From: West Sussex UK, well on the seafront in Bognor Regis actually! | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Roll of Honor Mahanaxar
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I PITY THA FOO!
From: pants | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Talan
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I was just making a point. Most liberals are, in fact, tolerant. It just seems to be the ones that take the most pride in their liberal views and open-mindedness (by this I mean the ones who most loudly and consistently remind us that they possess these qualities) that display the most baffling intolerance and lack of respect towards anything and anyone they associate with a conservative viewpoint.

They're generally the same people who rail on and on about how "unchristian" and hypocritical republicans, conservatives and religious people in general are, without ever seeming to realize that they themselves are violating the most touted ideals of their side of the aisle--tolerance, open-mindedness, reasonability, and understanding. After all, stereotypes are stereotypes, and they're always just as inaccurate and dangerous no matter who they're aimed at.

My basic point to liberals is this: you're not a yellow-bellied, pot-smoking commie, and I'm not a bible-beating, greedy, fascist troglodyte.

Pax?

EDIT: By the way, if you should ever feel I'm the one being hypocritical, I'm also welcoming you to call me out on it. As long as we're not dragging up posts from three years ago, that is. []

[ 04-13-2007, 02:38 PM: Message edited by: Talan ]

From: Austin, TX. Home of awesome. | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Grimwulf Stormspear
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Fair enough, Wetty. [] According to the report…

●●●●● Several years will be needed to assess the full effects of the National Minimum Wage… In the longer term, there is a particular need to monitor whether there are changes in the structure of employment. ●●●●●

The most sensible comments I have heard so far…

●●●●● Employment continued to grow in low-paying sectors in the quarter following the introduction of the minimum wage… Our research programme and consultation show that any job losses have been small. ●●●●●

So, by the Labour Government’s own research, they cannot rule out job losses but they insist that “any job losses have been small.”

We are also told that employment “continued to grow,” implying that increased labor demand had already been driving unemployment figures down. This information suggests a probable reconciliation between casual observation & the implications of neoclassical economic analysis.

Suppose that teenage unemployment had started off at 12%, then had fallen to 11%, and then 10% before the wage floor was adopted. Then, after adoption, the rate fell to 9.5%, and then to 9% where it leveled off.

Not bad, but without the wage floor, the rate would have fallen to 9% (instead of 9.5%), then to 8% (instead of 9%), and finally leveled off at 7.5%. In this case, the wage floor would have caused higher unemployment than would otherwise have been true, even though the rate continued to fall.

Now, obviously, this example is hypothetical & those numbers are chosen to illustrate a point. [] But the point they make is that the personal observations of our British friends are consistent with job losses due to the wage floor. Saying that the wage floor doesn’t destroy jobs because employment continued a pre-existing increase is like saying that flying airplanes prove that gravity doesn’t pull things down: It ignores the other forces at work.

But other forces are at work. Just look at the variance in the graph based on the larger, American data set:

 -

Some years with a high wage floor have low unemployment, but the overall picture shows a correlation between low-skilled unemployment & the level of the wage floor, just as predicted. [] The wage floor is one of multiple forces that influence the unemployment rate.

So, again, I’m not denying the observations of our British friends, just the hasty conclusions they have drawn from those. [] It’s a matter of how one handles & interprets the data.

[ 04-13-2007, 02:50 PM: Message edited by: Grimwulf Stormspear ]

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Furthermore, it is my opinion that Obamacare must be repealed.

From: The central lake-lands of the Great Peninsula. | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Wetwang
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Maybe the 2007 report on the Low Wage Commission's website sheds some light upon the affect of a minimum wage on the low pay / low-skill jobs market in the UK; I can't open the link due to it being a pdf file and my antiquated PC doesn't want to play ball! []

-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
Keep the earth under your feet, & clay on your fingers; wisdom in your bones, & have both eyes open!
That's Mr Wang™ to you!
This place would be a paradise tomorrow if every department had a supervisor with a submachine gun.

This bog is thick and easy...

From: West Sussex UK, well on the seafront in Bognor Regis actually! | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Grimwulf Stormspear
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Thanks for the link, Wetty. []

When you get the chance to open the PDF, take a look at Figure 2.19, covering 1998-2006. [] It shows a noticeable decrease in employment among workers aged 16-17 year. Smaller decreases occur among workers aged 18-21, and among workers “with no qualifications.”

quote:
There is some evidence that the low-paying sectors have experienced a reduction in employment. Young workers and those with no qualifications also appear to have fared worse than other groups of workers in the labour market, in terms of employment and unemployment.
These decreases take place while total employment stays the same, suggesting that the job loss is not due to macroeconomic fluctuations. [] Figure 2.20 gives further support to the impression that low-wage sectors have been differentially impacted. The British experience 1998-2006 thus appears to provide additional evidence that wage floors increase have disemployment effects among low-skilled workers.

Of course, that’s just my interpretation. As an American, I should probably not draw inferences from Her Majesty’s labour data. The extra u’s can be confusing. []

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Furthermore, it is my opinion that Obamacare must be repealed.

From: The central lake-lands of the Great Peninsula. | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Wetwang
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Mmm! Maybe I will read that report when I get into work on Monday; if it isn't too long! []
One thing you do not, and maybe the report also, might not be taking in to account is that over that same time period there has been a significant rise in the use of 'agency' workers. These workers are often from Eastern Europe; Poland, Latvia, the old Chezch Republic etc and they are willing to work for the minimum wage as and when required by the companies that use these agencies. This kind of employment, linked with a low wage (legal minimum) is not something, in my experience, that the average British adolescent is willing to engage in.
I wonder if the Low Wage Commission report reflects this, or even comments upon it []

E: These same East European agency workers are also not allowed to claim state benefits (ie unemployment benefits) for two years upon their entrance into the UK. Seeing that the UK unemployment figures are obtained from those claiming unemployment benefits then the findings in the report that the employment level is at the same level even though the unemployment figures for those aged 16-17 has risen would suggest that in fact the employment market in the UK has drifted more to the agency low-skill, minimum wage style of labour usage rather than the decade ago norm of employing full time low-skill workers.
This has most definately been the case in my industry over the last decade, that of agriculture and horticulture.

[ 04-14-2007, 03:54 PM: Message edited by: Wetwang ]

-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
Keep the earth under your feet, & clay on your fingers; wisdom in your bones, & have both eyes open!
That's Mr Wang™ to you!
This place would be a paradise tomorrow if every department had a supervisor with a submachine gun.

This bog is thick and easy...

From: West Sussex UK, well on the seafront in Bognor Regis actually! | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Roll of Honor Adulithien
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quote:
The Swordmaster: But for added emphasis, a job in a fast food place might be taken by a student, who doesn't have a wealthy family who can pay for thier tuition and living cost whilst at university, and who needs something fairly flexible so that they can fit it in around thier studies. They can't take any other kind of job, but why should they, when they need it most as they try to better thier career prospects, be denied a wage that they can live on?
Bingo. The low-pay issue can put one in a sticky situation especially if one is on the road to a higher skill, without the luxury of pre-existing financial priviledge to back it up. This is my problem right now. I have been financially independent from my parents since age 15 and have received no help from anyone in the form of money/nepotism/etc. So basically, I've been scraping by for nine years, with the exception of a two notable better-earning periods which were abruptly brought to an end by industrial injuries. And I have never been able to find trustworthy financial advice on safe investments for people with laughably tiny amounts of disposable income. So all together, I am fairly poor, have always been such, and this leaves me relatively impotent in a capitalist society, particularly where effecting change in situation is concerned.

Bring this back around to the student issue. I know that having no business sense, few connections and only labor- or art-related skills, that I will need to go to school to better my situation. But I still have to support myself by working while I attend college-- and I must hold down a job even with that pesky class schedule. Low-paying work tends to offer the necessary flexibility, whereas other jobs do not. And, of course, it is silly to imagine that this is embodied only in fast food work. At the moment, I cannot pay my own bills although I make slightly more than minimum wage per hour. (And no, I don't have any extraneous things like cable TV, magazine subscriptions, high-speed Internet, a shopping addiction, etc., for any of that mentality.)

I simply don't see why profession or age should affect whether or not a person deserves to be able to live. I didn't ask for the prices around me, and I've put in a lot of hard work to even end up where I am now. This issue seems to boil down to a single question: Do you have respect and compassion for other humans, or are you so smug in your own success and priviledge that you don't care about sentencing someone to death or a life that may be worse? At a certain point, if you give a damn about other people, then who gives a f#ck about the economic status quo when people are essentially entrapped in an impossible situation? The promise of capitalism is the ability to avoid/transcend that, but it is not a universally practical or plausible promise. It is as idealistic as wishing that people not have to die of being too poor.

And there is obviously demand for my work, or I would not have been sought for help. It is not as if I do not personally contribute to the economy or to society as a whole in other ways which may not relate to work/money. So why do I not deserve a living wage but someone who started out wealthy and never had to worry about sacrificing college to be able to support him/herself does?

Also, it seems to me that minimum wage is not even the issue, here. People on all sides of this discussion seem to feel that the minimum wage is flawed. I agree; I think a living wage is far more necessary than a mandated minimum wage. Especially as long as tons of people in the U.S. are paid far below the minimum wage for jobs in ultrahigh-demand sectors with (often) bad conditions! Lets not even get started about special laws for foodservice workers. Really, should anyone in a country as wealthy as the U.S. be making $2.13/hr.? It's shameful. And as long as this country is so damn obsessed with buying and buying and buying, why should people in the high-demand industry of retail sales also fall into this category so often? What good would money do the wealthy, anyway, if they couldn't spend spend spend because there were no piss-ants at the bottom of the ladder to sell sell sell to them? I'm pretty sure Sam Walton wouldn't stoop to get on that cash register even if he were alive.

If I'm not mistaken, Washington state operates on a living wage, and it doesn't seem to be destroying capitalism or crumbling into ultimate decay itself... so how does that work, exactly? What would be wrong with a living wage instead?

[ 04-14-2007, 10:31 PM: Message edited by: Adulithien ]

From: Austin | Registered: May 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Roll of Honor Gna
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I agree with Adulithien that a living wage, rather than a set minimum wage, is the important issue here. In the late 1990s, Barbara Ehrenreich worked at several different low-wage jobs, in three different US cities (Key West FL, Portland ME, and Minneapolis MN), to determine whether such wages (above the federal minimum, btw) were "sustainable". Not for a teenager living at home, but for a young adult or middle-aged person just trying to support herself at a minimal level. Ehrenreich concludes, in her book Nickel and Dimed:

quote:
It is common, among the nonpoor, to think of poverty as a sustainable condition-austere, perhaps, but they get buy somehow, don't they? They are 'always with us'...These experiences are not part of a sustainable lifestyle, even a lifestyle of chronic deprivation and relentless low level punishment. They are, by almost any standard of subsistence, emergency situations. And that is how we should see the poverty of so many millions of low-wage Americans-as a state of emergency.

The "working poor," as they are approvingly termed, are in fact the major philanthropists of our society...Someday, of course-and I will make no predictions as to exactly when-they are bound to tire of getting so little in return and to demand to be paid what they're worth. There'll be a lot of anger when that day comes, and strikes and disruption. But the sky will not fall, and we will all be better off for it in the end.


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Roll of Honor Adulithien
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Gna, if you're interested PM me and I'll send you a lovely little piece of writing that addresses that last quote. You might like it. []
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Grimwulf Stormspear
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Whether we call it a “minimum wage,” a “living wage,” or a “peanut butter sandwich,” a wage floor will always have same impact on competitive markers: Wage floors set above the market level drive up the market level increase unemployment. []

In the U.S., the wage floor is the single largest cause of black teenage unemployment. [] Are progressives ready to throw black teens under the bus just to pass a feel-good law? []

If you really want to help low-wage workers, why not find a policy that actually helps them? [] Of course, if you want to stick your head in the sand, I can’t stop you. []

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Furthermore, it is my opinion that Obamacare must be repealed.

From: The central lake-lands of the Great Peninsula. | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Luke
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Why not use the Ninja method to solve low wages and unemployment?

Create clans of self-sufficient demi-gods. Wait a minute, they (the great they) already did: Ninjas. We exist to free mankind from these sorts of things. Only the "bosses" aren't actual employers, but more like a ninety foot wizard with bad breath.

Edit: so the solution is obvious--to me.

[ 04-18-2007, 06:59 PM: Message edited by: Luke ]

From: Granada Hills, Ca. | Registered: Dec 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Angathas
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So the Congress wants to raise the minimum wage to more than $7. Wow! That's so low. What they really raise it if they believe in helping the so-called exploited workers? Here's an idea. Add $10 more. Raise to $17. That'll bring workers out of poverty.

Oh yeah, there's other consequences to this charade. Like more unemployment. Closing of businesses. Reduction of workforce. A new Great Depression. Your basic small business that has a staff of ten workers will be forced by law to raise hourly salaries. In order to keep the staff he has, he will cut the hours of many workers. There won't be any more full-timers. Many won't like that. He'll say, "OK you can keep your new salary. But I have more expenses now, so four of you will have to go. Sorry. I'll give you a nice reference."

This is what happens when you regulate capitalism too much.

From: Staten Island, New York 10306 | Registered: Dec 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Luke
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I agree to the ramifications of your foresight, or what we Ninjas call: Forthsighting. Your Yang of the little man was swimming circles around the fat and confused Yin of regulated wage earnings, which is just how it should be. My advice to everyone is: get out while you can. And become a Ninja!!!

[ 04-19-2007, 12:47 AM: Message edited by: Luke ]

From: Granada Hills, Ca. | Registered: Dec 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Roll of Honor Adulithien
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quote:
He'll say, "OK you can keep your new salary. But I have more expenses now, so four of you will have to go. Sorry. I'll give you a nice reference."
Because god forbid anyone reduce his profit margin. As long as we're talking hard truth here, just exactly how much of the economy is driven by small business as opposed to the mega-bucks churned out by, say, huge corporations who can afford the hike? Last I checked, there is a decent list of things that I cannot even procure from local sources in this town of 300,000 people.
From: Austin | Registered: May 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Luke
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(quote) Last I checked, there is a decent list of things that I cannot even procure from local sources in this town of 300,000 people. (end quote)

That is some sad malevolence going on there my friend. If we can't even experience variety anymore, what is the point of living? And where do living things come from? Not from Ninjas--but that's besides the point. Before I loose track and start slaying Behemoths, I'd like say that I have been forced to look at large business two ways: as an investiment for stockholders, and as a Behemoths that suck the public into its gapping mouth with its vodo mind-melding gaze and killer claws.

Now you can get back to slaying the Behemoths. [] [] [] []

[ 04-19-2007, 01:50 AM: Message edited by: Luke ]

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Roll of Honor Athene
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[]
Luke, enough already. It's bad enough splattering this Ninja crap all over the silly threads, but please leave the serious ones alone unless you have a proper point to make.
[]

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Éoric of the Riddermark
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quote:
As long as we're talking hard truth here, just exactly how much of the economy is driven by small business as opposed to the mega-bucks churned out by, say, huge corporations who can afford the hike?
Good question, if difficult to nail down. Here are a few facts a quick perusal of information (a bit dated - from 1995 I believe) provided by the US government turned up regarding employment by small businesses in the nation (WARNING: STATISTICS MAY BE INVOLVED):

Small businesses (those employing fewer than 500 employees) account for 52.6 million employees, as opposed to 47.7 employed by larger businesses.

Small businesses accounted for 75% of new jobs between 1990-1995.

Small businesses tend to hire a greater number of older workers and people who prefer to work part-time.

I haven't found much regarding dollar figures yet. []

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Luke
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But aren't we overlooking the fact that many small businesses form conglomerates? If there are so many small businesses popping up everywhere, don't you think the less successful of them will be swallowed up by the more profitable? Small businesses are becomming big ones right under our noses all the time.

There are three types of businesses: ones that somehow manage to remain at one level of income perpetually, ones that bottom out or are bought up by big business, and others whose only goal is to buy everything else out. Sometimes a small business buys out other small businessess.

It's almost like the food chain, except a morphing food chain where the prey turns into the preditors.

When it turns into a preditor it is a Behemoth. Simple. That's what its about: slaying large business.

[ 04-19-2007, 02:44 PM: Message edited by: Luke ]

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Hamfast Gamgee
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Am I correct in thinking that the minimum wage has been increased, or is about to be increased in America, at the moment?

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Actually, I am now feeling a lot better about things, in general.

From: Bagshot Row, Hobbiton, The Shire! | Registered: Sep 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
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Athene objects to off-topic talk? Well I never! []

quote:
So the Congress wants to raise the minimum wage to more than $7. Wow! That's so low. What they really raise it if they believe in helping the so-called exploited workers? Here's an idea. Add $10 more. Raise to $17. That'll bring workers out of poverty.
I bet you would never take a job that paid less than seven bucks/hour.
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Roll of Honor Athene
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quote:
Well I never!
I object to the same off-topic talk being posted in a dozen threads at the same time. Particularly when the person in question has been asked nicely in the past to desist.

E: Anyway, he's put a proper post in here now so it's fine. []

[ 04-20-2007, 02:28 AM: Message edited by: Athene ]

From: Hades, UK | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Grimwulf Stormspear
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Athene was right to object. [] Luke buried my post under a pile of his irrelevant offal. []

I hate to be a buzzkill, but, really, is anyone up to discussing the wage floor in light of its actual consequences rather than some fairy-tale world where a heroic reformer confronts “social problems,” then discovers costless “solutions,” after which everyone lives happily ever after? [] Everyone, of course, except the vicious troll / bloodthirsty ogre / greedy Jew / Korean grocer / heartless capitalist — who had it coming anyway. []

Economic problems & solutions only exist in textbooks. There are no solutions in real life — just trade-offs. Is an unemployment rate of more than 30% for black teenagers an acceptable trade-off for a wage floor? [] Is driving that rate even higher an acceptable cost for raising the wage floor? []

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Furthermore, it is my opinion that Obamacare must be repealed.

From: The central lake-lands of the Great Peninsula. | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Roll of Honor Adulithien
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ed: (Remember kids, getting sleep will keep you from posting things that make no sense!)

[ 04-20-2007, 06:17 PM: Message edited by: Adulithien ]

From: Austin | Registered: May 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
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